FOOD!

[comedyzen]

This actually belongs in the WTF thread if there was one for food. Went into a random hole in the wall Chinese restaurant here in the Bay Area. And yea, I know my hommies will desecrate the English language now and then with Chinglish, but guys, come on, do some research before you advertise your "Specials."

[Chinorlz]

Do not make the mistake of adding Moto as a stopoff. Where Alinea comes up with new preparations and refines them until they are awesome, Moto seems to come up with new preparations and then walk away. Nothing at Moto was even particularly delicious, and rather than refine the flavors to make the new idea excellent, a cutesy preparation is devised, then the dish considered finished. I'm glad I went once, so that I can advise people to avoid it. I'm sad I spent that much money to make the discovery though.

Do try to get a reservation at Schwa, a few people I know who have tried both put Schwa above Alinea. Getting a reservation there is an absolute nightmare though. Also, a few friends who ate around all the top restaurants in Chicago (except Schwa where they couldn't get a reservation) all agreed that Trotter's was simply the best. I was surprised.


On an unrelated note, I finally made it to Cyrus in the California wine country. The food is exquisite, the flavors are a nice combination of bold and delicate, and the comparisons to French Laundry are deserved (though I think French Laundry is the clear winner). The ambiance leaves a lot to be desired though. We had at least three waiters for our table, for no discernable reason, and they never talked to each other. I would regularly have all three come by within a minute to ask the same question. Also, there's a feel they're constantly trying to "upsell" you, which is annoying. It's worth it for the food though, easily.

I sadly didn't take pictures, but there were 5 small bites at the start designed to exemplify the 5 tastes. To my palate, these were the low point of the meal. From there it was all hits until dessert. Starting with the amuse bouche of wild yellowtail and basil (among other things), every other dish was stellar.

Aha, thanks for the update... maybe my memory of what Moto serves is stuck in the 2006-2007 era with the innovative cooking techniques. I have noticed that the dishes have become more whimsical without much general comment on flavor/taste. I'm going to look into Schwa now to see what they're about. Thanks!

[Vanna]

Mmm. dried squid that I picked up today from HK supermarket.

[endersgame]

can someone please confirm that there is no decent place in nyc to get a philly cheese steak?

someone asked me and i told them to go to philly..

[t-bone]

there used to be a tony luke's in hells kitchen but it has closed... 99 miles to philly is ok... really i just hold out for a visit to philly most of the time.

[BECOMING-INTENSE]

My Breakfast.



Organic White Tea (with Lemongrass, Camomile, Lime Flowers,
Rosehips, Jasmine Green Tea.)



Organic Yogurt Natural, Organic Muesli (Rolled Oats, Raisins, Malted Wheat Flakes,
Barley Flakes, Wheat Flakes, Chopped Apricots, Chopped Dates, Sunflower Seeds,
Roasted Hazelnuts, Desiccated Coconut, Flaked Almonds, Rice Flour, Sunflower Oil.),
Organic Millet Flakes, Organic Coconut Chips, Organic Banana, Organic Gala Apple,
Organic Kiwifruit, Organic Red Grapes.

Organic Orange Juice and Water (Not photographed)

Tea and coffee is alternated, sometimes both, whatever is
desired.

[MoFiya]

You should change the water, if it's not organic it's not worth drinking!

[BECOMING-INTENSE]

Yesterday, instead of Red Grapes, I had Blueberries.
The weren't organic. Don't tell.

[theetruscan]

Yesterday, instead of Red Grapes, I had Blueberries.
The weren't organic. Don't tell.

Eh, organic is overrated, or at least oversimplified.

I mean, non-organic fruit from a small farm using more classic methods will usually have small quantities of 2-3 pesticides and a better nutritional complement/flavor profile than an earthbound organic type fruit.

Organic fruit from Earthbound and similar farms is grown in massive "wash-away" fertilizer beds, lacks many of the nutrients in traditional non-organic fruit, but has no pesticides on it. Which one is better? I have no idea.

But even there there are foods where the pesticide doesn't appear to penetrate, and can be washed off rather effectively (blueberries are a frequently cited example) and others where this is impossible.

Non-organic fruit from industrial farms can be scary. Pesticide levels as many as 5-10x that at less industrial farms, and as many as 70 different pesticide residues found.

So much information. So much confusion. So hard to find authenticity of claims. So hard to track provenance. Utterly baffling to me.

[BECOMING-INTENSE]

There's no really confusing elements, maybe "in the land of the free",
but there is nothing overrated about a richer taste experience and
free from artificial "components". Actually most organic farmers use
what you call more classic method in the first place, so bringing out
Earthbound is a bit silly.

[theetruscan]

There's no really confusing elements, maybe "in the land of the free",
but there is nothing overrated about a richer taste experience and
free from artificial "components".

Well, no, there's nothing overrated about better taste.

But, here's where it gets complicated for me. Industrial organic farms produce food that, in my experience, doesn't taste better than industrial conventional farms. Industrial organic farms produce food that lacks the nutritional composition of traditionally farmed foods whether or not those traditionally farmed foods use pesticides. Saying "organic is better" is sidestepping a whole plethora of issues. Foremost, since this is food, is taste. But there's also health, and environmental impact.

Look, when and where I can get a completely honest provenance, find a "best practices" organic farmer producing what I want, the choice is simple. But, in most cases, the choices aren't that simple. In more detail:

Most organic produce right now comes from a small number of producers (internationally) who have adopted a set of practices that involve massive use of nitrogen rich fertilizer, in many cases just replacing the soil as a whole. This means the micronutrients found in soil that has been around for a long time, with responsible crop management, are absent. Produce is planted in this soil, grown as fast as possible using massive irrigation, which leads to huge washaway of nitrogen, because without the micronutrients that should be in the soil the plants do not have the resilience to survive many pests, diseases, etcetera, cut, refrigerated and shipped.

Most industrial produce is similar, but slower, with less nitrogen, water, and refrigeration, but instead with huge quantities of pesticide. I've seen well-structured arguments that this is better for the world than the above, and well structured arguments that it is worse for the world than the above. I've not seen anything that can say this is as good for the consumer as above.

But both of those pretty much suck (in my opinion).

Some non-organic produce is grown on soil that is properly maintained using nitrogen fixing plants, crop rotation, and so on. This produce is less vulnerable than the industrial produce above, and has a richer nutrient profile. However, pesticide is used, though much much less. I am thoroughly unconvinced that this is somehow worse for me, or the world, than the organic food mentioned above. Again, evidence both ways.

Some organic produce is as above but without pesticide. This is, obviously, what I would like to have all my produce be, but there isn't too much of it, and many farmers and retailers are simply dishonest about their farming methods given the clear price incentive.

EDIT: Just saw your edit. I don't know about how most organic farmers work, but the vast majority of organic produce comes from a small number of organic farmers. These larger organic farmers are much more like Earthbound than the "traditional" farmers. Again, there aren't many of them, but they produce the vast majority of the organic food.

[BECOMING-INTENSE]

First of all, I have never made any statement saying "organic is better",
but I did state that there's a richer taste experience. That is obviously my experience
and not yours or any one else. I try to get my organic products from smaller
independent farmers, but yes that is not always possible, and sometimes I can't
get what I want organic, I buy it none organic. It's no surprise that in any industry where
there's money to made there's questionable methods to be found, even in the organic one.
Your original argument was building on big producers like Earthbound, and, you have
further it, which is greatly appreciated. It's a fair argument if that's is what the market
has to offer in the States. But those none organic traditional farmers you are talking
about, at least here in europe are nearly none existent, most of those who are claiming
traditional methods are a lot of them organic. Can you trust them, that's always a
question, I have visit two independent organic farmers in Denmark, and with a smaller
market maybe it's easier to find these kind of producers.

[theetruscan]

B-I, you dig into some interesting areas.

In the US, at least, Organic certification is (a) slow and (b) expensive. There must be a certain number of years during which pesticide is not sprayed, as well as a variety of tests, conditions and fees. For many of the small farmers in my area, certification is not economically viable. For others in my area, they don't mind using small amounts of pesticides. I am not trying (though I expect I came across that way) to judge their viewpoints, as I lack the knowledge. I was just trying to explain the situation here.

Regarding availability and trustworthiness, that's not something that I think can be addressed as an "in the States" situation. I would say that almost all larger supermarkets, including the "green" ones like Whole Foods require so much volume that the small farmers who supply farmers markets and grow in the ways you and I prefer tend not to be much involved.

Once you get into Farmers Markets and direct-to-consumer, there's quite a lot of variety. When I lived in Tennessee, there were very few small, local, organic farmers because not much of the populace cared. But they were all dead serious about what they did. There just wasn't enough demand for anyone to lie or be in it for the funds. In the bay area, there are uncountably many small, "local*" farms. There are definitely plenty of amazing ones, and even some small grocers who stock produce of impeccable quality. But demand is high enough here that there are certainly stands at farmers markets ripping stuff out of earthbound or dole packages and upping the price.

At this point, if I shop at my chosen stands and markets, I am very confident in the quality of my food. But, when I walk into a supermarket and pick up some "organic" whatsis, I know very little about how it was grown.

Unrelated note, does anyone know why salt doesn't taste "salty" after you've sweated profusely? I understand that your body needs salt, but what's the biochemistry?

[BECOMING-INTENSE]

Yes, it's not just "in the states" related, It's just in smaller markets
like Denmark it's easier I think to locate those independent farmers,
if you want to. The larger chain supermarkets, it is hard to know
what you get, you need to seek out local supermarkets and specialized
stores/markets, or the best way directly from the farmers,
but living in urban areas the last option is difficult. I remember a
program I saw about tomato farming in England, where the reporter went to
both larger non- and organic production, smaller independent organic farmer
and last but not least a local farmer in Italy. And the Italian
tomato from his taste experience was so rich in taste compared to the others.
There is so many things that has to be taking into consideration, not just if it's
organic or not, but also the surrounding milieu and climate, have they been
traveling etc. It's all a part what makes the tasting experience.

[Fenix]

Once you get into Farmers Markets and direct-to-consumer, there's quite a lot of variety. When I lived in Tennessee, there were very few small, local, organic farmers because not much of the populace cared. But they were all dead serious about what they did. There just wasn't enough demand for anyone to lie or be in it for the funds. In the bay area, there are uncountably many small, "local*" farms. There are definitely plenty of amazing ones, and even some small grocers who stock produce of impeccable quality.

This is really what it's all about. In my opinion, "organic" has become a bit of an over-hyped marketing ploy. More people should start thinking local before organic. Time to plate is something that really excites me.

Try seeking out local farms in your area. Urban or rural, they aren't far, and most cities have farmers that will come in once or twice a week to sell their goods. Have a conversation with these farmers about their philosophy on growing. You'll find that most are as passionate about food as the designers recognized in this forum are about clothes.