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  • surver
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2007
    • 638

    NEXT

    there have been quite a few members commenting on the stagnation of the 'artisan' aesthetic and how everything is melting into each other resulting in everything looking and feeling the same... some negatively being 'accused' of copying another, etc... what is lacking is not craft nor technique, but 'thought' and 'concept'...

    i wish to propose a thread to openly discuss/explore/brainstorm possible new directions, to collectively seek/develop/evolve the possible next paths... to constructively use SZ to 'create' perhaps the next 'zeitgeist'... beyond the mere commenting/criticizing/applauding of this designer or that...

    what this forum definitely does not lack are expert intelligent creative individuals, why not put this to a more constructive use and collectively 'build' something? perhaps this should be the/a new mission statement for 'stylezeigeist'?
  • surver
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2007
    • 638

    #2
    whatever comes out of this open discussion would belong to everyone and be mutually beneficial and inclusive rather then mutually exclusive of the current state of things...

    Comment

    • Faust
      kitsch killer
      • Sep 2006
      • 37852

      #3
      Great idea, surver. Many design teams, high and low, read the forum and I am sure they'd be happy to know what we think. I like this idea of creating zeitgeist. More soon.

      This will also be a good thread to see who is here to discuss fashion and who to buy leather jackets.
      Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

      StyleZeitgeist Magazine

      Comment

      • AKA*NYC
        Senior Member
        • Nov 2007
        • 3007

        #4
        proliferation and stagnation isn't the same thing. the artisanal niche is clearly gaining a larger audience and more designers are entering the fray every season while existing designers are rapidly growing their collections. new stores are popping up and existing stockists are increasing the size of their buys to keep up with growing demand.

        in the general arena of menswear there is only so much further "innovation" that can be done. clothing is clothing. we are left only with "refinement" and "reworking" which invariably leads to claims of copying. in several years even this "copying" argument will be obsolete as a generation of fashion students bred on the brands discussed on this forum start bringing their own designs to market. they will be proud to cite harnden, ccp, ma+, etc., as their inspiration much as musicians openly cite their very recent influences today.

        in this future era of rapid proliferation and refinement the buyer will have unprecedented access to a massive range of quality garments. as a result the wearer's personal style and creative flair will emerge at the forefront while the prestige of individual designers and even brands may diminish (much like what happened to the "supermodel" since the 90s).

        waywt posters will become the new bloggers and les, merz, and philip nod will be collectively known as the holy trinity and get 1 million per appearance at massive fashion conventions.

        the zeitgeist has happened already.
        LOVE THE SHIRST... HOW much?

        Comment

        • Peasant
          Senior Member
          • Jul 2009
          • 1507

          #5
          Awesome post, AKA. I think there are already many students pursuing a career in fashion because of their love of such designers and clothing. You're right about only taking menswear so far. It's hard to imagine it can go beyond what we've already seen without being too much.
          Push boundaries but stay true to your roots. Use innovative techniques but remain artisanal. Refine the refined, then deconstruct that progress in the next collection.

          It's such a large 'niche' I find the word inappropriate. So many new stores that aren't only surviving but thriving. Growing faster than ever. Is there an SZ bubble?

          Comment

          • Faust
            kitsch killer
            • Sep 2006
            • 37852

            #6
            The analogy to music is very apt (I usually make the art world comparison, but music may be a better one).

            Yes, in a way it was easier for Ann, Yohji, Rei, Helmut, Jil, Raf. They had no precursors (maybe Armani to Lang?). Like punk rock though, they had enemies. Ann's was Chanel. Helmut's and Jil's was probably the Versace, Mugler, Gaultier trio of spectacle.
            They were the first wave.

            Second wave Rick Owens, Hedi Slimane, Cloak, A.F.Vandevorst, Undercover, Number Nine, Junya Watanabe. Third wave Doma, BBS, Julius, Carpe Diem children, etc. etc. and now it's getting bigger and people are doing it their own way. They don't get to invent - they get to reinvent. Therefore, in a way, yes, they are more limited because they have precursors, but they are not fully limited. There is ALWAYS room for interpretation. It's the direct copying that is the problem (from the creative point of view).

            What is now even more truly of respect is the ability of a designer to create a new esthetic in this saturated market (and it will get even more saturated - in the art world terms we are now in the mid-late 80s). Lanvin. Balenciaga. Haider Ackermann.

            As AKA says what we are seeing is proliferation and not stagnation. Although I am even hesitant to say that Lost and Found, Lumen et Umbra, Augusta, et al are part of fashion, meaning that they are inside the fashion narrative. I think they are outside the fashion narrative. They don't do shows, they are not in the mainstream and not even in the level under the mainstream, press. So, they don't really get to shape the way fashion moves (neither did Carpe Diem nor Poell - sorry to skewer the holy cows). The only way they may influence fashion is that when the cognoscenti start copying them, which in turn trickles down into the mass market. That's a long and arduous road though.

            So, yea, first I think we need to define the terms. Starting with "Fashion."
            Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

            StyleZeitgeist Magazine

            Comment

            • zamb
              Senior Member
              • Nov 2006
              • 5834

              #7
              Originally posted by AKA*NYC View Post
              waywt posters will become the new bloggers and les, merz, and philip nod will be collectively known as the holy trinity and get 1 million per appearance at massive fashion conventions.
              .


              On a serious note you present a cohesive argument A,
              but I dont necessarily agree with this position.

              I think I came to fashion at a different time and also in part because my first foray was womens wear and there is a greater level of freedom to create for the sake of creativity in the women's market.................
              However, I remember the late 90's and early 2000's when there was a burst of creativity on the scene, in both mens and womens. I am not nostalgic at all but I do blieve that what was offered by designers like Lang, Raf Simons like Hedi Slimane and what was offered at Cloak was, and in some ways still superior to many of the offerings now. the quality and detailing on many of those pieces were exceptional and even the deconstructionist knew how to put something together than was really interesting.......

              the Aesthetic was still the same, but there was a greater creative scope in the diversity of offerings. a lot of times now what I sew if bad fit, passed off as "anti fit" badly made clothes explained away in terms of aesthetic choice and a narrowing down of the range of designers to a very few being considered relevant.

              Also, there is a complete difference between being inspired or influenced by something or someone than copying the Person or just simply creating another variation of something that is already done by someone.
              Its fine for designers in college to be inspired and influence by today's designers, but there must also be some kind of unique vision and perspective that is going to make the work fresh and interesting...........
              “You know,” he says, with a resilient smile, “it is a hard world for poets.”
              .................................................. .......................


              Zam Barrett Spring 2017 Now in stock

              Comment

              • Faust
                kitsch killer
                • Sep 2006
                • 37852

                #8
                Maybe some of the current designers forget that in order to deconstruct something you have to know how to construct it first.
                Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                Comment

                • michael_kard
                  Senior Member
                  • Oct 2010
                  • 2152

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Faust View Post
                  I am even hesitant to say that Lost and Found, Lumen et Umbra, Augusta, et al are part of fashion, meaning that they are inside the fashion narrative. I think they are outside the fashion narrative. They don't do shows, they are not in the mainstream and not even in the level under the mainstream, press. So, they don't really get to shape the way fashion moves (neither did Carpe Diem nor Poell - sorry to skewer the holy cows). The only way they may influence fashion is that when the cognoscenti start copying them, which in turn trickles down into the mass market. That's a long and arduous road though.

                  So, yea, first I think we need to define the terms. Starting with "Fashion."
                  Great point. The artisanal 'scene' is almost like a fashion microcosm in itself, where extremely similar products are refined each season by different creators. Of course there's plenty of originality and all that, but sometimes it's easy to compare pieces in specific categories such as biker-inspired jackets, high lapel blazers and side zip boots.

                  In my opinion, trying to discuss 'what's next' is rather pointless, cos it implies that 'SZ' gear is a short-term trend, and that people who wear such clothes will just move on when the next trend hits the market. I'm sure that many people here are incl. myself choose what they wear because it represents them and not because of its relation to fashion ephemera. One can remain sartorially and culturally relevant without buying into the next thing, or the one after it.
                  ENDYMA / Archival fashion & Consignment
                  Helmut Lang 1986-2005 | Ann Demeulemeester | Raf Simons | Burberry Prorsum | and more...

                  Comment

                  • Faust
                    kitsch killer
                    • Sep 2006
                    • 37852

                    #10
                    I don't think discussing trends is surver's aim. He's just wondering in which direction fashion will go.
                    Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                    StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                    Comment

                    • surver
                      Senior Member
                      • Oct 2007
                      • 638

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Faust View Post
                      I don't think discussing trends is surver's aim. He's just wondering in which direction fashion will go.
                      thank you faust ;) it's not trends nor 'fashion' per say that i'm talking about... it's about how we can collectively think through and evolve the things that we like, ie the 'artisanal value system' if i may so call it. i don't think looking for the next trend or aesthetic is the point nor is it interesting, but more for how all this can be more sustainable, interesting, relevant.

                      throughout history, it is those that are complacent with status quo are those that get eventually passed on/forgotten/become irrelevant... i don't mean that we have to reinvent the wheel every couple of cycles, but we should always keep a critical eye on what has happened and critically see how things can go on next... 'next' in the sense of a continuum and not as a break (as understood in mainstream fashion terms).
                      Last edited by surver; 06-14-2012, 06:45 PM.

                      Comment

                      • surver
                        Senior Member
                        • Oct 2007
                        • 638

                        #12
                        i want to bring up an example that is not really 'sz' in aesthetic, but imo definitely conceptually very 'sz' (whether or not in reality it's doing all the things it started out to want to do):

                        in my understanding (or perhaps interpretation), one of the main missions of why daiki suzuki created engineered garments is to revive and perpetuate the values (and hence aesthetics) of 'american-made' using clothing as the means. besides just being another [commercial] clothing line, to me, eg represents a respectable engine that if there're more (albeit small sizes) and all can come together to share resources, can perhaps indeed revive many of the now-dwindling/obsolete/going-out-of-business century-old factories/businesses and hence evolving/sustaining heritage in the real sense, and not in the way luxury brands use 'heritage' as a marketing tool...

                        i foresee many will rebutt with comments like 'all this is already happening' but i seek to differ. related things are happening, yes, but only in specific individual instances and not systematic nor conceptually aware yet to be collective... for instance, the values that gbs has been fighting for and holding on to is highly respectable but in the end he's only one creator and that won't be able to keep so many centuries-old weavers, fabric mills, button-manfacturers, craftsmen etc alive in the long run, no?

                        yes yes yes, clothes are just clothes... for the selfish consumer individual, what does he/she care as long as he/she is able to buy the clothes he/she likes and express his/her own individuality, style and flare? but i thought SZ is more than that, that we're a bunch of people that are not just merely interested in buying but genuinely are interested in and care about the making of clothing and therefore its [cultural] ramifications?...

                        all right, enough rambling for now...

                        Comment

                        • Chinorlz
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2006
                          • 6422

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Faust View Post
                          I don't think discussing trends is surver's aim. He's just wondering in which direction fashion will go.
                          The constant changes both in the worlds of the Continues folks, L&F, BBS etc are what keep me interested in regards to what direction/look/feel that each of these lines takes over the years. Faust put in nicely with the 1st, 2nd, next "wave".

                          This 'classic with a twist' with tones of blacks is already mainstream with Rick mentioned and/or seen in every OK!, People etc. magazine and stores such as All Saints filling their racks with blacks, blazers, leathers, pants and boots. I do believe that SZ has had an influence on this transition over the years.

                          I have seen a constant disconnect between those that have a superficial appreciation for clothing (ie- taking them at face value... sometimes almost literally when it comes to Affliction etc. where the garment's "design" IS the graphic) and those that appreciate construction and fit. People that I know that may not wear as aggressive lines/pieces brands as those of us may wear but still appreciate construction and cut are easier to relate to and explain as to why CCP is special than someone who likes his Diesel jeans with an untucked multi-striped Express button up. The latter individual doesn't even know what stitch count is or pays any attention to having the lines of a pinstripe suit matched on pocket flaps etc. That's not their interest.

                          Like others have already mentioned, it's easy to draw parallels between the pieces and lines we discuss here because they often have a classic design basis. Be it a blazer or boots or black pants. There are truly only so many ways (although many many ways) to cut something and if you construct a wool blazer with slim sharp lines, it'll be similar to something else for sure. Everything comes from something and we pull from what we see, what we know and we evolve. Changes are gradual.

                          As for the future... I can only hope that there will be continued emphasis and focus on precision construction and fabrics experimentation along with materials treatments/dyeing (cold dyeing got real popular with a lot of folks real quick over the last year and a half). I will always appreciate those that construct garments not only to show exteriors but pay just as much attention to the interior. A great garment for me not only looks good on and to others when worn but also is comfortable for the wearer and has cut no corners with the finishings.

                          Individuals like Luca, Carol, Sruli, GBS have collections that I look forward to the most because to me they experiment the most and are unapologetic about their work. You like it or you dont and they keep going. Just look at Sruli... man has put out a few collections now and only recently has any of it been carried by any stores yet he keeps pushing and experimenting and creating new things. Certainly there is a luxury in doing so since the world of fashion and design is heavily linked to finances and the need to support yourself, your employees etc, but those that can continue to do so have my utmost respect.
                          www.AlbertHuangMD.com - Digital Portfolio Of Projects & Designs

                          Merz (5/22/09):"i'm a firm believer that the ultimate prevailing logic in design is 'does shit look sick as fuck' "

                          Comment

                          • eleven crows
                            Senior Member
                            • Mar 2011
                            • 546

                            #14
                            Perhaps another thing to consider is the recent burst of exponential interest the "sz aesthetic" is receiving, particularly online.

                            Previously there were the big three, superfuture, styleforum, and here. Now there's microforums springing up in places as far flung as 4chan and reddit. While they might not be in unified agreement on a style, the "goth ninja" element is well known, discussed, and followed.

                            Faust could probably confirm this, but I'd wager that SZ has found the userbase growing as well. This isn't even taking into account lurkers.

                            With the increased interest comes increased sales. Demand will rise and production will rise with it. Conjecture from me here: As people are coming into the fold, so to speak; reading threads, scanning waywt posts, cataloging grails; they'll be less inclined towards new releases from the designers in place of adopting what they have already seen and judged to be good.

                            Sorry if that was lopsided or a little patchy. Writing while juggling meetings tends to scatter the points.
                            Last edited by eleven crows; 06-15-2012, 01:53 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              great thread, thank you, surver.

                              maybe it'll be another patchy opinion (and from the noob, compared to most of you) but anyway.

                              First point is that SZ became a cultural phenomenon in its niche. Photos emerge in a variety of blogs and 4chan clones as noted. but it's truly right most for, as EC says, goth-ninga and all punk-nomadic thing from BBS and Tatsuro, and it's just last two years maybe. Like all trends it will go and return, but this doesn't mean that the niche trends become less niche, if you will say so.

                              Second is about all of us. Most of us have already found their comfort zone, their shells, their armor, call it what you like, the essence remains the same. Someone is still searching, but search terms too, has its limits. We are willing to put up with not the best quality of RO's shoes, ready to buy five virtually identical jackets, because we know who we are and what suits us. units, such as Jogu, can feel comfortable in different aesthetics, but it applies more to the personal charisma. And as noted by Dokus, we are all narcissists and losers, so we do not want to be surprised with something new each season, we wish that we could put something new into our crafted wardrobe.

                              That's why most are coming to the timeless designs of clothing, the artisanal concept, shifted classic. This applies to both buyers and designers. See how Richard from Obscur and, well, Simone evolve. They have moved from radicalism to the well-balanced and still unique products, which are much better fits in the priorities of their customers. So I don't see stagnation, it is only the continued formation of culture cell, a small but viable.
                              As for evolution, it seems to me that it was present at the poles of our world. On the one hand, it is Rick and Ann, who are on the verge of mass market, but still have their own creative potential to be the avanguard of fashion and still make experiments that can be interesting for the ordinary buyer and for old fans of the brand. On the other hand there are the poets, such as Jona, who, having a truly superb craftsmanship, go beyond classical aesthetics and tell his lovely little stories about east or civil war. But is this really what we need every day?

                              So, chaps, let's face it, I think that we ourselves wish this stagnation and the we ourselves raise a glass for it and will grumble about the earlier days when it was more dynamic and brighter, and Moth's beard was shorter.

                              Comment

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