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  • endersgame
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2009
    • 1623

    #46
    Originally posted by Tyro View Post
    I hope most people dont buy art as an investment, maybe I'm naive.
    well, sure. if they didn't, museums would be broke as they rely on the value of their collections.

    but this has nothing to do with shoes...

    Comment

    • BeauIXI
      Senior Member
      • Nov 2008
      • 1272

      #47
      Look.. Not to sound finalizing, but Tte final judge of value is the end customer, who decides to sink or float the prices that a designer or store chooses to set an item at.. If the price makes it worthwhile for buyers, then the designer will set it there.. Plus there is an aura of eliteism which surrounds high priced items, making them more desirable due to exclusivity.. Of course I wish LUC was more affordable, but why complain about it here?
      Originally posted by philip nod
      somebody should kop this. this is forever.

      Comment

      • Fuuma
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2006
        • 4050

        #48
        Originally posted by pierce View Post
        Its a bit arrogant on the designer's part to charge 3000 for a pair of shoes. Because thats all they are. The art thing doesn't stand up. A display of skill or a nice idea, but art no.
        To drop 3,000 on shoes, you'd want to have around 1 million in the bank, but I think anyone with 1 million in the bank, probably has it because they wouldn't pay 3000 for a pair of shoes if you know what I mean.
        I also have a suspicion that the majority of MA+ customers don't have that kind of money.
        I don't. Consumers of the pricier end of luxury goods are from the wealthier classes of society, those puritan clich├ęs may sound good to you but this shit does not stand up to scrutiny. This is also true of Bentleys, luxury yachts, expensive art, designer furniture, lavish houses etc etc. The moneyed class does spend a lot on luxury and this drives aspirational consumption. Now people who buy MA+ may, in a large part, belong to the less wealthy cultural (rather than economic) elites but that doesn't mean that they're by any mean poor. The distinction provided appears to be worth it for them as MA+ is doing quite well. Keep in mind that affirming their supposed independence from the rich but boorish economic elites is done through tasteful consumption and the brands we discuss may fall into that category for certain buyers.

        Oh and bespoke shoes start at around 3K and can command a much higher price so a variety of people do buy 3K+ shoes.
        Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
        http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

        Comment

        • pierce
          Banned
          • Aug 2009
          • 253

          #49
          Think there is a certain naivety here.

          Lets take the 3,000 euro shoe. Now, at some point ma+ sat down and fixed a price for this. Now what drove the decision to put 3,000 euro on it. I'd like to examine that.

          Comment

          • endersgame
            Senior Member
            • Aug 2009
            • 1623

            #50
            ^^ well, it's not going to go lower. that will destroy the brand..

            Comment

            • Fuuma
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2006
              • 4050

              #51
              Originally posted by endersgame View Post
              well, sure. if they didn't, museums would be broke as they rely on the value of their collections.

              but this has nothing to do with shoes...
              It is precisely the conspicuous art consumption of private collectors that is pricing museums out of the market. They rely on gift from generous donors (often collectors themselves) and only have the budget for a few well-targeted acquisitions anyway.

              If rich dudes didn't want to show off you'd actually have MORE interesting recent pieces in museums, all things considered.
              Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
              http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

              Comment

              • whitney
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2009
                • 300

                #52
                Originally posted by pierce View Post
                Think there is a certain naivety here.

                Lets take the 3,000 euro shoe. Now, at some point ma+ sat down and fixed a price for this. Now what drove the decision to put 3,000 euro on it. I'd like to examine that.
                so when they place it on sale for 2000 euros pple will be like omg ma+ shoes on sale!! cop!! and they'll get the price they secretly wanted in the first place

                Originally posted by zamb View Post
                and here begins the great never ending discussion......................
                you stole my signature :insert mad face:

                Comment

                • Fuuma
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2006
                  • 4050

                  #53
                  Originally posted by pierce View Post
                  Think there is a certain naivety here.

                  Lets take the 3,000 euro shoe. Now, at some point ma+ sat down and fixed a price for this. Now what drove the decision to put 3,000 euro on it. I'd like to examine that.
                  The leather on those is a lot more expensive than they usually use and the construction more demanding, I'd wager it is at about the same margin of profit than the other pairs.
                  Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
                  http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

                  Comment

                  • Fuuma
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2006
                    • 4050

                    #54
                    Originally posted by whitney View Post
                    so when they place it on sale for 2000 euros pple will be like omg ma+ shoes on sale!! cop!! and they'll get the price they secretly wanted in the first place
                    MA+ do not own stores so if it's in a store they already got the price that they wanted. I doubt retailers decided of a different multiplier for that shoe so, once again, that's not how the pricing was decided.
                    Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
                    http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

                    Comment

                    • endersgame
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2009
                      • 1623

                      #55
                      ^^ not only are the rich collectors to blame, museums cannot deaccession anything they want. either by contract they are not allowed or it just looks bad Moma is hocking their De Chirico on ebay to pay their bills..

                      Comment

                      • Fuuma
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2006
                        • 4050

                        #56
                        Originally posted by alice anise View Post
                        This sounds like circular reasoning and is precisely what is being called into question. Whether it is M.A+/LUC and their fabric choices, RO/ANN/YY/DD and their sensual universe, or CCP and his experimental design, do the pricepoints accurately reflect the creative process at work or is the premium solely indicative of an aura that attracts a wealthy/elitest consumer base? Is it a coincidence that a significant percentage of their clientele work in the fine arts field?
                        A lot of these brands do flirt with the idea of "fashion as art" which can be seductive. In the end they aren't but they often do offer a discourse on the object of art via their creations.

                        Poell is really good at that with the "I am not an artist", no one was saying that Carol but you put it on the table by denying it, you sly devil.
                        Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
                        http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

                        Comment

                        • pierce
                          Banned
                          • Aug 2009
                          • 253

                          #57
                          I wanted to purchase a large form Wolfgang Tillmans print. I nearly did, but then I thought abit more about it. While I still love the print, the fact that it is a print and can be run off a 1000 times meant in the end that I could not square it with myself. Art where by it is unique one of a kind hand work I think has the right to have a high value.

                          Comment

                          • Fuuma
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2006
                            • 4050

                            #58
                            Originally posted by endersgame View Post
                            ^^ not only are the rich collectors to blame, museums cannot deaccession anything they want. either by contract they are not allowed or it just looks bad Moma is hocking their De Chirico on ebay to pay their bills..
                            Museums do sell some of their works from time to time but works given to them often come with closes about having to keep 'em and even negotiations about exposure time (people don't want their work to be left in a crate and some museum collections are very large).
                            Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
                            http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

                            Comment

                            • endersgame
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2009
                              • 1623

                              #59
                              pierce, you have to buy with your heart and not buy the edition limit.

                              you could apply this to clothing if you want..

                              Comment

                              • Fuuma
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2006
                                • 4050

                                #60
                                Originally posted by pierce View Post
                                I wanted to purchase a large form Wolfgang Tillmans print. I nearly did, but then I thought abit more about it. While I still love the print, the fact that it is a print and can be run off a 1000 times meant in the end that I could not square it with myself. Art where by it is unique one of a kind hand work I think has the right to have a high value.
                                What if it isn't handwork? Being one of a kind is only one aspect of art pieces. No two spits of mine look alike, where is the value in my smoker's phlegm? I hope Tracy Emin doesn't read the forum, she'll have a new masterpiece out in no time.
                                Selling CCP, Harnden, Raf, Rick etc.
                                http://www.stylezeitgeist.com/forums...me-other-stuff

                                Comment

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