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  • sphoxx
    Member
    • Nov 2006
    • 51

    (new) dandyism


    Had an interesting discussion with a friend
    today about style and such and the term "dandyism" cropped up in his description
    of the direction he perceived my personal style has been taking lately. I'd
    remembered reading a couple descriptions of new dandyism around, namely newdandyism.com's definition and this article (although a bit old).


    What do you guys think of this "development" in men's outlooks towards fashion and lifestyle; is it at all significant? Also, do you think the image of masculinity is changing as well? What got me thinking about this was my friend's comment that "a man should be strong;" in dress and in presentation. For quite some time (and esp. in the USA) interests in fashion/self image/presentation have been considered "feminine." Are/will men reclaim these aspects of lifestyle; or redefine them as masculine in the social eye?


  • Servo2000
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2006
    • 2183

    #2
    Re: (new) dandyism

    It's a fascinating topic, but the only thing that I have to contribute at the moment is that I really want that guy's hat. I'll try and offer my thoughts later, but I have a paper to write for the next couple of hours.
    WTB: Rick Owens Padded MA-1 Bomber XS (LIMO / MOUNTAIN)

    Comment

    • Faust
      kitsch killer
      • Sep 2006
      • 37852

      #3
      Re: (new) dandyism



      [quote user="Servo2000"]It's a fascinating topic, but the only thing that I have to contribute at the moment is that I really want that guy's hat. I'll try and offer my thoughts later, but I have a paper to write for the next couple of hours.[/quote]



      Me too. Damn Shakespeare, taking away my time from serious thoughts... <arnold>I will be baak.</arnold>

      Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

      StyleZeitgeist Magazine

      Comment

      • Faust
        kitsch killer
        • Sep 2006
        • 37852

        #4
        Re: (new) dandyism



        Ok, enough Shakespeare for today, let's move on to Wilde.



        First of all, the store and the article are talking about two diametrically opposed things. I'm not sure which one you think the new dandyism is... or is it both? The store is pushing same sweatshirts'n'jeans brands that can be found in any pseudo-cool cookie cutter store. Of the brands they champion Rag and Bone is the only one that in my humble opinion has evolved into something a little interesting. The article on the other hands is talking about new interpretations on the suit.



        So, I guess I'll just talk about what I think (new) dandyism is... if there actually is such a thing. I don't know. The only new dandyism I see is (mostly indie) rock bands sporting suits. Personally, I think it's fucking ugly, shallow, and pathetic - given the context. A rock musician in a suit is an equivalent of a eunuch. But that goes naturally with what most of these poseurs, led by Pete Doherty, are... poseurs. Give me Sid Vicious, dammit. Give me Trent Reznor. Give me Zach de la Rocha. Give me energy and depth. I'm tired of these Franz Ferdinand girls in suits strumming the same three chords on their badly tuned guitars. Leave them in the corner hugging with Hedi. If these are the new dandies, then we are thoroughly fucked. As the streetwear website says, if dandy first acts differently, assuming that dandy is a rebel, than there will never be a new dandy. Rebellion is over, packaged in a nice slim black suit by Dior Homme and sold for $2.5k at Barneys. Baudelair was a dandy. Oscar Wilde was a dandy. They acted differently first, their dress was secondary. They were rebels who achieved something. Today, the website's definition no longer holds. You can only dress diferently. And even that's hard.



        But enough bitching. If you want to talk about new dandyism as a superficial shell, than yes, I think we are witnessing a new wave of dandyism. Men are dressing up, no doubt about it. I visit other forums occassionally, where all that people have in common is owning the same brand of cars. It helps me greatly getting to know and fixing my car, and it also is a great place socio-cultural observations. A lot of those guys don't have a first clue about clothes, but their curiousity has been piqued. If not them, then it's their women who kick them into their suburban nordstroms and banana republics, because they are tired of their men looking like slobs. On Wall St., I am seeing more and more well-fitting suits and daring colors. Granted, we have a ton of British immigrants working here, but it's not all them who bring a bit of style to the finanical industry. The omnipresence of mens magazines is also a clue, as well as a one-new-guy-per-day on the styleforum who asks what the best shoes are. And, oh, what was that stupid show about gay people teaching straight people to be gay? I doubt that would've been successful 10 years ago.



        A part of me thinks that maybe straight men are being emancipated? Who knows. I definitely see women influencing men into dressing better, even teenagers. Rappers now rap about Gucci, instead of gin'n'juice, and attend fashion shows.



        Anyway, enough rumblings for today. I now know that I don't have a clear answer.

        Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

        StyleZeitgeist Magazine

        Comment

        • Servo2000
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2006
          • 2183

          #5
          Re: (new) dandyism



          [quote user="Faust"]... if dandy first acts differently, assuming that dandy is a rebel, than there will never be a new dandy. Rebellion is over, packaged in a nice slim black suit by Dior Homme and sold for $2.5k at Barneys. Baudelair was a dandy. Oscar Wilde was a dandy. They acted differently first, their dress was secondary. They were rebels who achieved something. Today, the website's definition no longer holds. You can only dress diferently. And even that's hard...[/quote]



          Faust hit on the thing that most irritated me about the store. While the concept of a "new dandy" is interesting, I don't really know that the moniker of 'dandy' is a good way to describe it. We already know what a 'dandy' is, there isn't even a revolution, it will simply be the revival of old 'dandy' ideas and perhaps aesthetics re-hashed in shallow shells.



          However, I will admit, that there is something interesting conceptually about applying the "old" idea of a dandy (although frankly this old / new dandy distinction is somewhat ridiculous) to a more streetwear-oriented environment. Is it possible to raise 'streetwear' to a level that could be considered dandy-ish? I'm not sure, but I tend to think that it's possible, and that possibility intrigues me. I think that's what the stores "mantra" or whatever was trying to hit on, although frankly I'm sure they were just trying to think of a way to make their selling of, as Faust put it, "the same sweatshirts'n'jeans brands" more interesting than it really probably is.



          There is a distinction, in my mind, between dressing well and being an honest-to-goodness dandy that I think the article concentrating on suits missed, so I don't really understand it's relevance even to the understanding of the phenomenon. We'll see, I suppose. Right now is an interesting time in menswear. I don't know if it's going to "save" the United States from it's inherent sloppy-ness, but I think it could raise the bar a little.



          [quote user="Faust"]... Give me Trent Reznor ... [/quote]



          You never struck me as much of a NIN man, for some reason Faust, for whatever reason. Interesting.

          WTB: Rick Owens Padded MA-1 Bomber XS (LIMO / MOUNTAIN)

          Comment

          • sphoxx
            Member
            • Nov 2006
            • 51

            #6
            Re: (new) dandyism



            Wow no, I definitely didn't mean the store or the article in particular; I just thought the store had an interesting interpretation of the term. The article is certainly geared towards the mainstream, and doesn't really represent what I'm trying to get at, merely pointing towards the "superficial shell" as you put it.



            I was much more trying to get at the rise of men defining their personal style. Dandyism has historical connotations, but the new awakening of men to take care of/care about their appearances seems to be becoming more public indeed.



            A part of me thinks that maybe straight men are being emancipated? Who
            knows. I definitely see women influencing men into dressing better,
            even teenagers. Rappers now rap about Gucci, instead of gin'n'juice,
            and attend fashion shows.



            ^^ Precicely, these are the macro trends I'm interested in. I would call a rapper in all his blinged out matching bape hoodie/shoes/watch/belt/boxers/toothbrush as conscious about image as a rocker/franz ferdinand/psudo-rebellious hipster is about his. What they have in common is that awareness of self and what they're trying to say about themselves with their clothes.



            The kurts, sids, trents, and zachs of the world, I would imagine, don't really care about clothing or how it impacts their lives. They're style icons precicely because they don't care; that nonchalant-ness is what's so attractive about their style. Genuine, authentic style that comes from a lifestyle of art can never be replicated, it can only inspire others to carve out their own paths (which is what I suppose the "true" new dandy would do, if it exists). Those that mimic will always be those that mimic...

            Comment

            • fixoid
              Junior Member
              • Sep 2006
              • 17

              #7
              Re: (new) dandyism



              The term seems like something fabricated by shallow fashion jornalists to appease their foul gods.



              I thought new http://newdandyism.com/ was high snobiety attempting to remove its proboscis from the atrophying corpse of streetwear and find a new host. i guess the arragment of links was deceptive.



              Anyhow, http://www.dandyism.net/ is much more fun. It is a pity that one has to register to view the forums now.



              If this does achieve any traction, I hope someone manages to resurrect cravats.

              Comment

              • Faust
                kitsch killer
                • Sep 2006
                • 37852

                #8
                Re: (new) dandyism

                Servo, I'm a huge NIN admirer for 12years. I've never related to anyone so much (as far as music goes, that is). I've been to 3 concerts, and I was going to go to my 4th in London in March, but unfortunately financial and academic situation does not allow for a vacation until I'm done with my master's thesis...
                Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                Comment

                • Faust
                  kitsch killer
                  • Sep 2006
                  • 37852

                  #9
                  Re: (new) dandyism

                  [quote user="sphoxx"]

                  A part of me thinks that maybe straight men are being emancipated? Who
                  knows. I definitely see women influencing men into dressing better,
                  even teenagers. Rappers now rap about Gucci, instead of gin'n'juice,
                  and attend fashion shows.



                  ^^ Precicely, these are the macro trends I'm interested in. I would call a rapper in all his blinged out matching bape hoodie/shoes/watch/belt/boxers/toothbrush as conscious about image as a rocker/franz ferdinand/psudo-rebellious hipster is about his. What they have in common is that awareness of self and what they're trying to say about themselves with their clothes.



                  The kurts, sids, trents, and zachs of the world, I would imagine, don't really care about clothing or how it impacts their lives. They're style icons precicely because they don't care; that nonchalant-ness is what's so attractive about their style. Genuine, authentic style that comes from a lifestyle of art can never be replicated, it can only inspire others to carve out their own paths (which is what I suppose the "true" new dandy would do, if it exists). Those that mimic will always be those that mimic...



                  [/quote]



                  Absolutely. Celebrity today has united with other industries to fuck an average consumer out of his money, and rappers/indie rockers are no exception. Dior Homme dresses Franz Ferdinand for free, just like Gucci dresses Jennifer Lopez, just like Nigo dresses Pharrell (whoever the fuck that is). I think for celebs it's a power trip - they get off on that shit; it allows them to think they run the world.



                  I don't know what will be next. Hopefully something good. Cloak was good, made a splash. I think Alex tried to do a new dandy thing - it defintely comes through in his clothes, and in the whole design of his store, and he never made an obvious reference to anyone the way Slimane did. As far as someone making a cultural impact coupled with a style impact - I am not sure.

                  Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                  StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                  Comment

                  • sphoxx
                    Member
                    • Nov 2006
                    • 51

                    #10
                    Re: (new) dandyism



                    As far as someone making a cultural impact coupled with a style impact - I am not sure.



                    Yeah, you made some good points about indie designers in this thread; I'd imagine (and hope) they're the future.



                    As for the dandyism thing, I agree w/servo that it's not really the proper label for what the symptom I was looking at. "Dandyism" as applied to streetwear on the site, and applied to the psudo-rebel rock in the article, hints at the idea that whatever underlying philosophy (or mentality) of conscious dressing could apply to any lifestyle clique/tribe. The "new" dandy is perhaps a hip-hop dandy, a rock dandy, a pop dandy, a streetwear dandy, or high fashion dandy (perhaps the origional embodyment). We have brands that're making products that cater to every aspect of a particular group's lifestyle; and the men that want to replicate the icons that pioneered that lifestyle (perhaps a sid or zach) seek to identify though being the "dandy" of their clique (rapper - buy that Jacob watch, rocker - buy that dior suit, etc).

                    Comment

                    • Servo2000
                      Senior Member
                      • Oct 2006
                      • 2183

                      #11
                      Re: (new) dandyism

                      [quote user="sphoxx"]

                      As far as someone making a cultural impact coupled with a style impact - I am not sure.



                      Yeah, you made some good points about indie designers in this thread; I'd imagine (and hope) they're the future.



                      As for the dandyism thing, I agree w/servo that it's not really the proper label for what the symptom I was looking at. "Dandyism" as applied to streetwear on the site, and applied to the psudo-rebel rock in the article, hints at the idea that whatever underlying philosophy (or mentality) of conscious dressing could apply to any lifestyle clique/tribe. The "new" dandy is perhaps a hip-hop dandy, a rock dandy, a pop dandy, a streetwear dandy, or high fashion dandy (perhaps the origional embodyment). We have brands that're making products that cater to every aspect of a particular group's lifestyle; and the men that want to replicate the icons that pioneered that lifestyle (perhaps a sid or zach) seek to identify though being the "dandy" of their clique (rapper - buy that Jacob watch, rocker - buy that dior suit, etc).



                      [/quote]



                      But is that really a new development? It seems to me that more or less as far back as I can remember, there have always been "the rappers," "the punks," etc... who obviously always had their respective commercial outlets, and followed fashions set by the group and by big names. What exactly is the new development that we're seeing? Is it even a new development?



                      It seems to me that in this sense, it is not. There have always been people very concerned with their appearances in relation to these particular 'scenes,' it seems to me. Maybe to a more intense, and more pricey, degree now than ever before, but that's more an evolution than anything new, the way I see it.



                      I'm not disagreeing so much as driving at really trying to see what is it that might be different, for better or worse, now than it ever was? Like what was said earlier, people, men especially, are becoming concerned with 'fashion' and improving ones appearance once again, but that does not intersect, in my mind, with the concept we're approaching here.



                      Is it a development in the personalities and understanding of 'taste' and 'style' to a higher degree, or is it more of a development of the ability of these lifestyle brands to penetrate our lives, and our conciousness (and our wallets)? I think it might be a bit of both.



                      Sorry for rambling, maybe someone will understand what I'm getting at, maybe I'll try and edit / refine this later, I'm incredibly tired and that's just what came out when I started typing, which is probably a poor way of doing things.



                      Also, Faust, it's nice to see other NIN fans (I'm a sucker for the Reznor, despite my expiremental tendencies). I've been an admirer for about six years now, two concerts so far. Good times.

                      WTB: Rick Owens Padded MA-1 Bomber XS (LIMO / MOUNTAIN)

                      Comment

                      • sphoxx
                        Member
                        • Nov 2006
                        • 51

                        #12
                        Re: (new) dandyism



                        ^^ You're right, it's not that new; perhaps its just becoming more visable. But what is kind of progressive is the meshing that happens at the top of the respective industries (rappers at fashion shows, celeb designers). Seems any lifestyle can be marketed these days, as long as there's a demographic to support it. Definitely not all pretty, but at least the landscape's shifting.

                        Comment

                        • cto
                          Junior Member
                          • Dec 2006
                          • 6

                          #13
                          Re: (new) dandyism



                          Although the thread is gotten a bit off track, I find the topic of a "new" dandyism to be very interesting. Dandy is a word that for a long time dissappeared and now it seems to be reemerging in everyday vinacular.

                          I think the newdandyism.com site comes w/ a unique point of view. Many people that are begining to call themselves modern day dandies are using outdated qualifiers. Their likening themselves to Oscar Wilde or Beau Bremmel, but if they were true modern day dandies or new dandies, comparing themselves to these figures of the past makes it clear that they aren't dandies at all, just emulating an old model. Even the two mentioned iconic dandies had so little in common other than how they were viewed and how unique they were for the periods they lived.



                          It's about creating a unique perspective, personality, and style. Creating a new standard.



                          As for the brands that the newdandyism store plans on selling... who's to say that a "new" dandy couldn't pull from these labels. Many of the brands they are carrying are not run of the mill. Even the two streetwear type brands they are selling, call of the wild and wood wood, are very well made, great quality, and have unique stories. And you can't say much wrong about Rag&Bone and Nicholas K.

                          Comment

                          • Faust
                            kitsch killer
                            • Sep 2006
                            • 37852

                            #14
                            Re: (new) dandyism



                            [quote user="tweedlesinpink"]You can only dress differently. And even that's hard.

                            faust your comment interests me...it got me wondering awhile, trying to see if i could remember artists who could be on the other side of your statement - "authentics" whose style was an extension of their art, rather than the basis for it. one group i immediately thought of was radiohead, one of my favourite bands (i don't go for much rock in part because i'm more of a jazz person...but when i do i head for the pink floyd and radiohead a large part of the time). but there is no radiohead "look" - you can't really say "hey, you're copping that radiohead look" and expect to be understood in the same as if you'd said instead "you look like an indie rocker". because this is radiohead



                            and so is this and this



                            and most tellingly so is this



                            if anything the band seems to dress down, turning up on stage looking like they were just playing a gig for a mate's birthday at a bar just down the street, slightly scruffy and a little uncomfortable under the glare of the lights, with that awkward stance...visually, externally, there is no indication of their genius until they begin to play. is this the "rock rebel" of our age?
                            [/quote]



                            Well, it's hard to say anything with a style so non-descript like jeans and tshirs. I mean, what would you say about radiohead style? is it something immediately discernable? Based on the pictures you posted, I would say no. Maybe there are more telling pictures?

                            Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                            StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                            Comment

                            • Faust
                              kitsch killer
                              • Sep 2006
                              • 37852

                              #15
                              Re: (new) dandyism

                              [quote user="Servo2000"][quote user="sphoxx"]

                              As far as someone making a cultural impact coupled with a style impact - I am not sure.



                              Yeah, you made some good points about indie designers in this thread; I'd imagine (and hope) they're the future.



                              As for the dandyism thing, I agree w/servo that it's not really the proper label for what the symptom I was looking at. "Dandyism" as applied to streetwear on the site, and applied to the psudo-rebel rock in the article, hints at the idea that whatever underlying philosophy (or mentality) of conscious dressing could apply to any lifestyle clique/tribe. The "new" dandy is perhaps a hip-hop dandy, a rock dandy, a pop dandy, a streetwear dandy, or high fashion dandy (perhaps the origional embodyment). We have brands that're making products that cater to every aspect of a particular group's lifestyle; and the men that want to replicate the icons that pioneered that lifestyle (perhaps a sid or zach) seek to identify though being the "dandy" of their clique (rapper - buy that Jacob watch, rocker - buy that dior suit, etc).



                              [/quote]



                              But is that really a new development? It seems to me that more or less as far back as I can remember, there have always been "the rappers," "the punks," etc... who obviously always had their respective commercial outlets, and followed fashions set by the group and by big names. What exactly is the new development that we're seeing? Is it even a new development?



                              It seems to me that in this sense, it is not. There have always been people very concerned with their appearances in relation to these particular 'scenes,' it seems to me. Maybe to a more intense, and more pricey, degree now than ever before, but that's more an evolution than anything new, the way I see it.



                              I'm not disagreeing so much as driving at really trying to see what is it that might be different, for better or worse, now than it ever was? Like what was said earlier, people, men especially, are becoming concerned with 'fashion' and improving ones appearance once again, but that does not intersect, in my mind, with the concept we're approaching here.



                              Is it a development in the personalities and understanding of 'taste' and 'style' to a higher degree, or is it more of a development of the ability of these lifestyle brands to penetrate our lives, and our conciousness (and our wallets)? I think it might be a bit of both.



                              Sorry for rambling, maybe someone will understand what I'm getting at, maybe I'll try and edit / refine this later, I'm incredibly tired and that's just what came out when I started typing, which is probably a poor way of doing things.



                              Also, Faust, it's nice to see other NIN fans (I'm a sucker for the Reznor, despite my expiremental tendencies). I've been an admirer for about six years now, two concerts so far. Good times.



                              [/quote]



                              Awesome (about NIN) [Y]



                              I think I understand what you are saying. The big difference today is that the rappers go for luxury stuff - it's a new phenomenon, at least clotheswise. Look at 90's hip hop videos, they are all about ghetto, the hood, gangs, etc. These days it's my $10 mil crib with bitches shaking their asses in Gucci panties. You kind of alluded it yourself in your post, actually. Honestly, 10 years ago, could you see Naughty by Nature at a fashion show? Another difference is that as far as I know Run-DMC never got paid by Adidas to wear those 3-stripe suits they are visually famous for.



                              Punk is actually a wonderful example of what I was talking about, thanks for bringing it up. There was NO such clothes at the time the Sex Pistols came around, they had to (re)make everything themselves. Vivienne Westwood was hanging out with them at the time via her husband, Malcolm McLaren, and when she saw how the Pistols dress, she decided to make that into a clothing line. There were no plaid punk pants back then, no studded MC jackets, and other stuff like that. That's how new clothes are born! Westwood took what was already there, interpreted it in her own way, and as punk bands got richer and became hip her market expanded. And now punk has been made all neat and cute by the upper middle class children. Go into Trash and Vaudeville in the east village and look at the prices. What punk kid in the 70s could pay $150 for a pair of pants? (I'm not even talking about those ubiquitous ramones tshirts, that's a whole different kitsch story).

                              Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                              StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                              Comment

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