Designer Hype

[KeijiHaino]

Re: Designer Hype



This is an interesting subject and a never-ending debate. But the most recent topic is that of whether or not fashion is subjective.Fashion is subjective. I agree with Mutterlein and JaridRose on many of their points. First of all there seems to be an issue of race. Race plays a part everyday in society as does social upbringing as Zamb said, but this will only be a struggle in the designers mind, or the person trying to break free of the racial stereotypes or somehow trying to earn money, etc. For example, if Zamb feels (please take no offense) that his race plays a part and the class he is considered to be a part of, the only way to succeed is to not let it be a partof the picture. Thatold saying, It's only a problem if you make it a problem. Speaking of Doori, If i am correct, she came from Korea? and her parents werent wealthy, Doori even made clothes out of her parents dry cleaning business...But she is very succesful because of her drive and determination. It seems to me that people expect things to be haned to them. If people have the qualifications and a good work ethic, I have never seen a problem for anyone, gay, straight, white, black, etc. in achieving their goals. This is America. Beauty is subjective, and yes, Faust, as we get older, our views change. I once wore He-Man underwear when I was 5 years old because I liked He-Man. I now wear Calvin Klein. When designers make collections they make them for people in markets. Calvin Klein has a market as does Juicy. If we don't like sweatpants with Juicy on the bum then we can find things that we do like. We have a choice...apples and oranges...like someone said earlier Taste. Fashion is like food, you see. Some people buy food to be trendy, for health reasons, or for the price. Some people eat Sushi because it could be seen as a trendy food...others eat if because it is healthy...others don't eat it because it is raw food. If I don't like raw food today I may like it tomorrow. If I don't I can eat Lay's chips. But for someone to become angry and say it is wrong for me to eat Lay's chips is ridiculous. Yes, Lay's may be unhealthy, but I don't like the taste of Sushi. So I can say, Sushi is bad, it tastes bad, while others like it. If someone says P.Diddy isnt fashion, or Phat Farm people arent designers, that is like saying Lays chips arent food because you dont like unhealthy food. P.Diddy is a designer. Millions of people wear his clothing. DooRi is a designer also. People change and people like things not for the same reasons as you do or I do. We are different, if we don't like things we have choice.

As far as Designer Hype, I have to agree with earlier posts, hype isnt created from nothing, it is created from money and people who like the clothes, even if we dont like them....Von Dutch had a large audience and a celebrity audience. People magazine began taking pictures of celebrities in Von Dutch, and the logo was catchy, so people who saw the logo and liked it, whether or not we did, bought it. Then they began to make money andpay celebrities to wear their clothes, thus creating even more hype. This goes back to above. If we dont like Von Dutch so be it, but there are some brands that pay for hype and generate hype through their fans and customers that I like. And Im sure that the people who wear von dutch dont like my clothes, and wait for the next hyped up clothing brand brought to you by money, like Sean John or Ed Hardy.Money is behind most companies, either from the beginning or through hard work. Either way, there is always a market for these clothes whether we like it or not. It's like seeing a couture show and saying "who buys these things?" well somebody does and/or it's all for sure. It's fashion. Love it or leave it.

There is also a question about talent. The fashion industry isnt for rewarding people for their skill. It is a business. If you want an "atta boy" the fashion industry isnt the place. It is all a business. Behind every bad designer is a good business man. Behind every good designer is a good business man. Money buys nice fabrics and skilled workers. If you want good things money will buy them. If you do not understand it, I'm sure the art world could use another struggling artist. That is why people with money succeed so quickly in the fashion industry because they already have a fan base and they hire people that are good at what they do. Like P.Diddy, he has a celebrity audience and by paying Zac Posen, celebrities put two and two together and there you are. Hype+Money=success in the fashion industry. There is a little bit of talent thrown in for good measure. I wish it were different but it's not.

[zamb]

Re: Designer Hype

[quote user="laika"]

Johnny, I think I generally agree with you.

But.....

aren't we a bit off the mark comparing P Diddy or Madonna to people who actually design for a living; or even comparing something so commercial as Juicy Couture tracksuits to "elegant and sophisticated" design? It's apples and oranges; two completely different products for completely different customers. I imagine that a young designer like Zam is competing less with celebrities and purely commercial ventures than with some of the stuff (of dubious quality) that Seven and Opening Ceremony are selling--Preen, IOC, 3as4, etc. (Zam, please correct me if I am wrong; and please know that I mean no offense by putting your name in the same sentence as the above [:S].)

I mean, I wish as much as anyone that juicy couture didn't exist (for the sake of my eyes, if nothing else), but I'm not sure its absence would help the success of actual fashion designers.

[/quote]

well in some ways you are right in saying that Preen IOC etc are my
competition, we are all a part of the "young/emerging designer" market,
our price points are close and the customer who buys thier products
would also be interested in mine simply because it is considered "indie
fashion" and we sell at similar stores. However, we are also indirectly
(and even in some instances directly) competing with PPL like P. Diddy
etc.

i will give you an example, P.Diddy has won both the
(swarovski) Perry Ellis award for new fashion talent, and the CFDA
menswear designer of the year award. The perry Ellis award usually goes
to a traditional emerging designer, the year when he one, a legitimate
(someone who studied fashion or at least does it as a main profession)
was denied that year, so essentially in that sense he was/is our
competition.

another point is the Scheduling for coverage during
fashion week, My show was Scheduled for 2hrs before Marc Jacobs, when
an editor for Harpers Bazaar showed up, she simple said hello, gave me
her card and asked me to e-mail her the images, her reason was she
didnt want to not be able to enter Marc Jacobs if she got there late.
while marc and I are not competing for the same customers (at least not
now) we are in a sense competing for coverage from the Media etc. the
reality is that there is a finite amount of media stores, customers
that we are all competing for, for the sake of clarity (and other
reasons) people categorize things differently, but there is always some
kind of overlapping of the categories that creates a kind of
competition among us.

[KeijiHaino]

Re: Designer Hype

Zamb,
Out of curiosity, what is the name of your clothing line? (if i don't already know!)
are there pictures online? i'd love to see.
thanks!

[mutterlein]

Re: Designer Hype

[quote user="laika"]

mutterlein, with all due respect, what fire water are you drinking?!
No one is attacking Asian designers, or saying Japanese are the same as
Koreans; and there is no "racist tirade" here against anyone. Where on earth did that come from? Your posts are usually so well thought out. [:^)]

[/quote]

Sorry for the awkward fanaticism, but this isn't the first time Zamb has commented on the amount of Asians working in the fashion industry. Collectively, his remarks could be read with a tone of resentment. And if you read between the lines it's not hard to see. Why else did he bring it up if only to show that their race, along with his, is a key factor in their varying degrees of success. It's absurd to think, as Zamb insinuates, that their race is why they are successful.

[laika]

Re: Designer Hype



Keiji, if I may speak for Faust.....what happens when you substitute the word "quality" for "beauty?" Because I have a feeling Faust is using "beauty in the eye" as a metaphor...

Is quality also subjective? Is discerning quality necessarily tied up with personal taste?

Probably need another thread for this too....

[laika]

Re: Designer Hype

[quote user="mutterlein"][quote user="laika"]

mutterlein, with all due respect, what fire water are you drinking?!
No one is attacking Asian designers, or saying Japanese are the same as
Koreans; and there is no "racist tirade" here against anyone. Where on earth did that come from? Your posts are usually so well thought out. [:^)]

[/quote]

Sorry for the awkward fanaticism, but this isn't the first time Zamb has commented on the amount of Asians working in the fashion industry. Collectively, his remarks could be read with a tone of resentment. And if you read between the lines it's not hard to see. Why else did he bring it up if only to show that their race, along with his, is a key factor in their varying degrees of success. It's absurd to think, as Zamb insinuates, that their race is why they are successful.

[/quote]

ok, sorry, mutterlein, I didn't realize there was a history there. [51]

The reasons you give for the lack of african-american fashion designers are very sensible; and they strike me as cultural, rather than racial. Is it possible that there are cultural reasons for the relatively greater number of asian fashion designers? These would not be the sole reasons of course; I am just wondering what the cultural factors might be.

[KeijiHaino]

Re: Designer Hype



Well a quick nod to the asian culture black culture thing...Asians all over the world account for the largest number of people employed in the fashion industry by far. Just look at where most of our clothes are made. Even designer clothing....

Whatever word you use, quality, beauty, both are subjective. Moreso with beauty. If you say something like the quality of this garment is better than this, it may not be subjective as far as it being functionable. Like the button won't pop off or the seam won't rip. But then we have jeans that we purchase and they are already ripped!

But this discussion has more to do with what we find beautiful. We don't like the STYLE, not the construction. People are saying they are better designers because of the way their garments look. Unless someone has worn these clothings we cannot say whether or not the quality is bad.

Beauty is subjective because beauty is undefinable. As time goes on quality will be undefinable too. just think of what the avant garde will come up with next, something that doesnt function well but we find it beautiful.

both are subjective in my eyes.

[zamb]

Re: Designer Hype

[quote user="mutterlein"][quote user="zamb"][quote user="Blackalicious"]

I really don't see race as a factor, and in terms of why there aren't any "successful" black designers in "High Fashion", i think that its more of a cultural issue here to long to take here. I would think that its much more harder for a Chinese designer with all the money to break into London fashion week and get good reviews than it would be for a black designer. With all the money if you haven't got the right connections your collections will be overlooked and stylist WILL NOT pick your garments for shoots and then over to the shops who are also very PICKY over who they let in.

Zamb, i tend to think that if Mr Combs & Co. (black celebrity designers) thought that they would make more money in "high fashion" they would be calling up Mr Didier Grumbach asking to show in Paris but there interests i would argue are purely a financial ones.

When a designer is starting out its very important to have these "right" connections, i think they matter less once one is more financially stable so they need less hype. But some still pay for it indirectly, for example by financing fashion magazines thought advertising etc.

[/quote]

Thanks Blackalicious,

however,you still have not answered the question, you have only reiterated that you dont see it a factor, not seeing it does'nt mean that it isnt,

Also, isnt fashion an extremely important part (albeit to varying degrees) of every culture that ever existed. It would be really nice to hear your views on the cultural aspects of it

also there are chinese designers who are (somewhat) successful here in NYC you have Vivienne Tam, Yeholee Teng, Mary ping etc. and i would broaden it to say the Orient is well represented in the fashion industry the japaneese in paris, people like Doo-Ri , Philip Lim etc, also china has become a production powehouse for fashion, so that will be (as if it isnt already) a Huge leverage for any aspiring chinese designer.

I am glad you mentioned connections, because, a lot of times connections (and the strenght threrof) is largely based on ones upbringing, and socio-economic standings, which Race place a huge factor in.

And yes, the Celebrity designers are in it for the money (but who isn't? ) we all need money to at least allow us to continue working at what we do, but there are some of us, who are technically accomplished professionals, who have done all the groundwork and studies that show that we are serious about this profession and really want to be able to make the best of it

[/quote]

This is an interesting post, it betrays your own bias against Asians. You even lump them all into one group as if there were no difference between the Japanese or Koreans (a Korean would surely make a distinction).

But the reason why there aren't many blacks in high end fashion is because of what's called a pipeline effect. There simply aren't that many blacks who seek to go into fashion design or know the required avenues to enter it. If you took a census of any fashion program in the U.S. you'd find that probably less than 10% of the students were black, if even that. You look at the top schools in the U.S. Parsons, F.I.T., etc and you'll find very few black students. Why is this? Well, there are two reasons. The first is that there simply aren't many blacks in college period. This has it's own reasons riddled with race discrimination, poverty, anti-intellectualism, victimization, what have you. It's in this aspect that I give your complaint any validity.

The second is a lack of appreciation for fashion design or the creative arts in the black community. If you look at historically black colleges you'll find a lack of visual and creative arts programs. In my own university there is a mentoring program for young black students, but not for the ones in the art school, fashion design is even further out of the question. You also don't have many blacks experienced in fashion who will go back and mentor younger students trying to enter the industry. This is changing very slowly so maybe in 10 years things will be different. Appreciation for fashion is really a cultural thing, there's a reason why France has it guided under the hand of the government, it's literally a national institution there. South Korea's government is doing a similar step to get their industry booming.

By the way, I'm speaking strictly about African Americans.

You have the possibility that whites and asians are favored over blacks in the fashion industry. I can't deny that isn't the case, racism pervades every aspect of our world. But then, that kind of outlook falls apart in places like France, a country where Josephine Baker and James Baldwin were welcomed and loved by the french. Speaking of James Baldwin, there's a reason why he isn't well liked in African American studies programs within the U.S....HOMOPHOBIA, something strong and healthy in the black community. I'm sure that has something to do with the willingness blacks have to enter fashion.

So maybe that sufficiently answered your question. And please Zamb, do not use your own racist tirade to attack Doo Ri or Thakoon or whoever for their success. If you really want, we can do a side by side critique of their collections v.s. yours and I can show you why race isn't the issue.

And if I sound offended it's because I am.

[/quote]

Mutterlien,

I think you completely misunderstood my post, ytou also said in your other post that this is not the first time i have commented on Asian designers in the fashion industry.

What racist tirade do you speak of?

from my mouth?

Never!

First of all, I am a christian, who believes that a loving and benevolent God created all human beings (and living things that exist) ci believe that every himan is to be respected if only because they are Gods creation. I have never Judged people on the basis of race, nor have i ever bought into racial stereotypes. I an from a contry where racism is almost nonexistent, and the national motto is "OUT OF MANY, ONE PEOPLE" we have chinese, jews, syrians, indians, and blacks all living in harmony in Jamaica, it is not by chance or happenstance that Tourism is the biggest income generating industry in Jamaica. I have only lived in the US for seven years, and While i am not afraid to say, that I HAVE experienced racial bias being here (both in and outside of the fashion industry) I have yet (and probably never will) grasp the full dynamic of it, largely because it was never an issue during my formative years.

I have always had a tremendous amount of respect for you (not that i have really lost any, as i am assuming that you clearly misunderstood my comments) and it is unfortunate that you would think that i would take a cheapshot at any designer because of thier race (something over which they have no control) If you have read anything that i have said about Thakoon, you would know that he is one of my most repected designers here in NYC, I am a huge champion of talents like Benjamin Cho, so where is the Racism?

quotev me something negative or meanspirited that i have ever said about Asains, whether they be Chinese, Japanese, Koreans etc.

I live my live by Bibical principles, and has Jesus said in St Matthew 7:12 "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Why would i want to be meanspirited against someone on the Basis of their race, when i do not wish such for myself

[Blackalicious]

Re: Designer Hype

[quote user="Faust"][quote user="Blackalicious"]

I really don't see race as a factor, and in terms of why there aren't any "successful" black designers in "High Fashion", i think that its more of a cultural issue here to long to take here. I would think that its much more harder for a Chinese designer with all the money to break into London fashion week and get good reviews than it would be for a black designer. With all the money if you haven't got the right connections your collections will be overlooked and stylist WILL NOT pick your garments for shoots and then over to the shops who are also very PICKY over who they let in.

Zamb, i tend to think that if Mr Combs & Co. (black celebrity designers) thought that they would make more money in "high fashion" they would be calling up Mr Didier Grumbach asking to show in Paris but there interests i would argue are purely a financial ones.

When a designer is starting out its very important to have these "right" connections, i think they matter less once one is more financially stable so they need less hype. But some still pay for it indirectly, for example by financing fashion magazines thought advertising etc.

[/quote]

I think the black/white racism in the US is VERY different from Europe, where this type of racism is practically non-existent. I think in Europe you have your own racism, and I think racism boils down more to cultural antagonism if anything. Blacks were assimilated much faster in England after English enslavement of Africans ended (long before American did, and without requiring a civil war). Anyway, that's a whole other issuer.

I don't think PDiddy's motivation was purely a financial one. I think it was more of an ego thing - he just wanted to go to Vogue parties and bang models, that's about it (besides money). These celebs just want to get their ego boosted - they want to be recognized as multi-talented ("talent" used ironically here).

Anyway, I will try to reformulate my original point to see if we can get the discussion going again;

Do you feel that today's media creates hype (hoopla, undue or excessive attention) to new designers who don't deserve it and by doing so are lowering standards required of a designer in order to be not only financially successful, but recognized as an important designer in creative sense? If you do, why do you think that is? Is it because the sheer number of media outlets and PR firms has increased and they need to feel pages, or somehow differentiate themselves? Is it because the market expanded? Is it because another generation of consumers came into its own?

[/quote]

You are on point regarding the race issues EU/USA, maybe its more hidden in Europe and i will agree to disagree on Diddy. [:)]

[Blackalicious]

Re: Designer Hype

[quote user="laika"][quote user="mutterlein"][quote user="laika"]

mutterlein, with all due respect, what fire water are you drinking?!
No one is attacking Asian designers, or saying Japanese are the same as
Koreans; and there is no "racist tirade" here against anyone. Where on earth did that come from? Your posts are usually so well thought out. [:^)]

[/quote]

Sorry for the awkward fanaticism, but this isn't the first time Zamb has commented on the amount of Asians working in the fashion industry. Collectively, his remarks could be read with a tone of resentment. And if you read between the lines it's not hard to see. Why else did he bring it up if only to show that their race, along with his, is a key factor in their varying degrees of success. It's absurd to think, as Zamb insinuates, that their race is why they are successful.

[/quote]

ok, sorry, mutterlein, I didn't realize there was a history there. [51]

The reasons you give for the lack of african-american fashion designers are very sensible; and they strike me as cultural, rather than racial. Is it possible that there are cultural reasons for the relatively greater number of asian fashion designers? These would not be the sole reasons of course; I am just wondering what the cultural factors might be.

[/quote]

mutterlein, the cultural issue is very sensible going to college in London, i was the only black boy in the whole year for during my final year another one joined on the womens course, but there were lots of other students from India/Japan/Korea/China, i would think that during the last 10 years this college which is well known has had less the 50 black students who have graduated from the fashion courses (BA/MA).

But another more important issue to me is why there is few women at the top design positions, this to me in more interesting than the whole race issue...abit off topic sorry [51]

[mutterlein]

Re: Designer Hype

Zamb,

In another world (the fashion spot) you've made comments about the prominence of Asians in the fashion industry that have been juxtaposed with discussions about race. And why would you even bring race up if it were not matter for discussion? I'm not really trying to accuse you of anything, but I can read between the lines. It's something I noticed. And I'm not sure why your brought it up in this thread and what your point is other than what I've already inferred.

[Blackalicious]

Re: Designer Hype



Zamb, i will keep race out of this for now because to me its more of a cultural issue, however perharps if the fashion fringe competition was in the USA, Mr. Gavin (i am not a big fan) would have never won the top prize. What do you think?

Regarding connections, i think some are born with them some have had to work HARD for them thats my personal view, i have had to do the former.

[zamb]

Re: Designer Hype

[quote user="Blackalicious"]

I really don't see race as a factor, and in terms of why there aren't any "successful" black designers in "High Fashion", i think that its more of a cultural issue here to long to take here. I would think that its much more harder for a Chinese designer with all the money to break into London fashion week and get good reviews than it would be for a black designer. With all the money if you haven't got the right connections your collections will be overlooked and stylist WILL NOT pick your garments for shoots and then over to the shops who are also very PICKY over who they let in.

Zamb, i tend to think that if Mr Combs & Co. (black celebrity designers) thought that they would make more money in "high fashion" they would be calling up Mr Didier Grumbach asking to show in Paris but there interests i would argue are purely a financial ones.

When a designer is starting out its very important to have these "right" connections, i think they matter less once one is more financially stable so they need less hype. But some still pay for it indirectly, for example by financing fashion magazines thought advertising etc.

[/quote]

Mutterlein,

Here is the reason why it was brought up, as a direct response to this statement that was made by Blackalicious.

All i was simply stating is that there is no lack of representation of Oriental peoples in the High Fashion Industry.

I am not saying that it is easy for Anyone, for we have seen (and read) of the constant struggles of many designers (both startups and established ones) who are often in and out of business regardless of thier Colour, As i have said before, race is only a single factor, there are many other Variables.

and for the record, I want to make it clear (even though i have been accused) that by no means am I saying that Race is the most significantfactor in the slow of progress in my business. there are many factors (of which i know and am very sure of) that have caused my business to be moving at a slow pace. matter of fact, i kinda like the pace that my business is moving at, as there are things that I cannot deal with at this time and wouldnt want to be faced with an opportunity that i cannot take advantage of.

At this point my goal (of which i am in the process of fulfilling)is to put in place a solid infrastructure, that will allow me/my business to survive the Ebbs and flows of this industry

[zamb]

Re: Designer Hype

[quote user="Blackalicious"]

I really don't see race as a factor, and in terms of why there aren't any "successful" black designers in "High Fashion", i think that its more of a cultural issue here to long to take here. I would think that its much more harder for a Chinese designer with all the money to break into London fashion week and get good reviews than it would be for a black designer. With all the money if you haven't got the right connections your collections will be overlooked and stylist WILL NOT pick your garments for shoots and then over to the shops who are also very PICKY over who they let in.

Zamb, i tend to think that if Mr Combs & Co. (black celebrity designers) thought that they would make more money in "high fashion" they would be calling up Mr Didier Grumbach asking to show in Paris but there interests i would argue are purely a financial ones.

When a designer is starting out its very important to have these "right" connections, i think they matter less once one is more financially stable so they need less hype. But some still pay for it indirectly, for example by financing fashion magazines thought advertising etc.

[/quote]

Mutterlein,

Here is the reason why it was brought up, as a direct response to this statement that was made by Blackalicious.

All i was simply stating is that there is no lack of representation of Oriental peoples in the High Fashion Industry.

I am not saying that it is easy for Anyone, for we have seen (and read) of the constant struggles of many designers (both startups and established ones) who are often in and out of business regardless of thier Colour, As i have said before, race is only a single factor, there are many other Variables.

and for the record, I want to make it clear (even though i have been accused) that by no means am I saying that Race is the most significantfactor in the slow of progress in my business. there are many factors (of which i know and am very sure of) that have caused my business to be moving at a slow pace. matter of fact, i kinda like the pace that my business is moving at, as there are things that I cannot deal with at this time and wouldnt want to be faced with an opportunity that i cannot take advantage of.

At this point my goal (of which i am in the process of fulfilling)is to put in place a solid infrastructure, that will allow me/my business to survive the Ebbs and flows of this industry

[Blackalicious]

Re: Designer Hype

Faust back to your original point, i don't really have a straight answer its quite complex when i think of it in detail, there are so many points to make, so i am going to keep it simple for now, if any designer good/bad can manage to create media hype without paying for it especially right now then i would just wish them luck and say CONGRATULATIONS!