FOOD!

[julian_doe]

Faust, milk is not recommended for ANY mammal past the stage of infancy. We are the only filthy creature to drink the fat filled garbage (from all sorts of other mammals) throughout our entire lifespan.

Well, us, and some of the other creatures we domesticate.

[Picasso]

Faust, milk is not recommended for ANY mammal past the stage of infancy. We are the only filthy creature to drink the fat filled garbage (from all sorts of other mammals) throughout our entire lifespan.

Well, us, and some of the other creatures we domesticate.

Why is that?

[Chinorlz]

I'll take a nicely pulled espresso with a swirl of microfoamed fat filled garbage please.

[julian_doe]

Picasso, there are many reasons. From a perspective of health, many studies have shown that the consumption of dairy products (milk, cheese, etc.) is associated with metabolic disorders, including obesity. As well, we are mammals...and as mammals "We are the only filthy creature to drink the fat filled garbage (from all sorts of other mammals) throughout our entire lifespan.

Well, us, and some of the other creatures we domesticate."

Milk can be fine to consume by some people's standards, but it must be kept in mind that the only reason why anyone should consume milk (past infancy) is for it's taste. In fact, milk is one of the biggest causes for osteoporosis, which is contrary to the myth that milk is good for your bones.

[julian_doe]

Chinorlz, that's great! People, including myself, consume all sorts of crap which isn't good for our bodies (I enjoy an American Spirit cigarette every once in a while).

Try almond milk with espresso, and tell me what you think.

[Chinorlz]

Picasso, there are many reasons. From a perspective of health, many studies have shown that the consumption of dairy products (milk, cheese, etc.) is associated with metabolic disorders, including obesity. As well, we are mammals...and as mammals "We are the only filthy creature to drink the fat filled garbage (from all sorts of other mammals) throughout our entire lifespan.

Well, us, and some of the other creatures we domesticate."

Milk can be fine to consume by some people's standards, but it must be kept in mind that the only reason why anyone should consume milk (past infancy) is for it's taste. In fact, milk is one of the biggest causes for osteoporosis, which is contrary to the myth that milk is good for your bones.

Please explain and please quote peer reviewed journal articles.

Short of consuming excessive amounts of milk, it's certainly should not be portrayed as some toxic, disease inducing liquid.

[julian_doe]

Chinorlz, I am not sure who is trying to say that milk is "some toxic, disease inducing liquid." I was initially agreeing that it is not recommended for adults, and then I expressed a bit of disgust for the liquid (which I believe is fair in a forum about food). In fact, I also said that "milk can be fine to consume by some people's standards, but it must be kept in mind that the only reason why anyone should consume milk (past infancy) is for it's taste."

As far as intellectual resources, there is an author of medical publications named Russel Eaton who mentions how milk can make bones porous. I believe the book is called "The Big Bone Lie", and I used it as a reference for a paper I wrote last year for school. You can always just research the subject yourself, if you are skeptical about the validity of my statement.

[croatoan]

If you're trying to convince people of the big bad milk conspiracy, I imagine most people are going to appreciate a bit more than "A book exists. I looked at it when I wrote a paper. Beyond that you're on your own."

I don't even care one way or the other, but come on -- that's just lazy.

[Chinorlz]

I'm not always going to trust a book as it is not always based on validated, peer reviewed and rigorously studied text. Anyone can write a book on anything and tout it as "fact".

In your post you painted milk as something quite negative and portrayed this view as fact. You also made some comments that you also portrayed as facts regarding milk, but when I did a cursory pubmed search on the subject along with looking at some web pages from prominent US universities I was not able to find definite corroborating evidence.

In the end its neither here nor there. Drink it if you like it.

In regards to smoking cigarettes (which has been proven to be hazardous to your heath by and large), nicotine does have an interesting effect on those with ulcerative colitis in regards to decreasing flareups so its one of the rare instances where smoking cessation may not be fully advocated... LOTS of peer-reviewed articles on this subject.

I'll try the almond milk version next time I'm at the store and can pick up a bit of almond milk... personally I use lactose free whole milk when I make cappuccinos at home because the lactose is pre-broken down into glucose and galactose and imparts a sweeter flavor to the cappuccino than standard whole milk.

[Chinorlz]

I recently had a very lovely dinner at Maison Premiere over on Bedford Ave.

Pretty much all they serve is oysters (up to 20 types available on any given day with east and west coast ones on the list) and best of all, from 4-7 PM Monday through Friday, each one is only $1 versus the regular price of $2-3 each. They also specialize in absinthe and have spent quite some time setting the place up with vintage absinthe water drippers etc.

A few friends and I had our fill with twelve dozen in total and a multitude of absinthe based drinks.

One of the best dining options in the area in a nice ambiance as well.


Afterwards we had drunken DuMont burgers and fries too. No regrets!

[julian_doe]

croatoan, there is no "conspiracy" which I am supporting or trying to propagate. I understand that simply stating the title of the book does not count as a collegiate source of reference...the thing is, that I am not currently writing for my college professor. To be honest, I was asked where I obtained my information from, and thus I mentioned one of the sources which supported my statement in the past. Yes, I did so in a casual manner.

Chinorlz, I appreciate that you are actually taking the time to "debunk" what I said with evidence. PCRM is the "Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine" and they discuss the matter in the following link: http://pcrm.org/health/health-topics...d-strong-bones

In this article they discuss milk and it's relationship to calcium and bones. I initially decided to discuss Osteoporosis, because it seems that most people support the consumption of milk because it has Calcium ("Got milk?", etc.). "In a 12-year Harvard study of 78,000 women, those who drank milk three times a day actually broke more bones than women who rarely drank milk." Such is stated based on a Harvard study cited as: Feskanich D, Willett WC, Stampfer MJ, Colditz GA. Milk, dietary calcium, and bone fractures in women: a 12-year prospective study. Am J Publ Health. 1997;87:992-997.

The article also states that in elderly men, "those with the highest dairy product consumption had approximately double the risk of hip fracture compared to those with the lowest consumption."

There are other examples included in this article, which, being part of a physicians journal, seem pretty valid to me. I am not studying medicine in school, but as a type 1 diabetic and a student of journalism, I have a lot of interest learning about good and bad dietetic behaviors. Yes, cigarettes are bad (as I previously stated), and I used the example because it is another non-crucial part of many people's lives.

I always welcome a good argument, but such can't be achieved when some can't accept another person's opinion about a drink! Milk is not a deadly liquid, it is simply an everyday part of most people's diet which is not as important as some stubbornly want to believe. In fact, it has been studied to cause health problems.

And, in my modest opinion, it is DISGUSTING.

[Chinorlz]

Chinorlz, I appreciate that you are actually taking the time to "debunk" what I said with evidence. PCRM is the "Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine" and they discuss the matter in the following link: http://pcrm.org/health/health-topics...d-strong-bones

In this article they discuss milk and it's relationship to calcium and bones. I initially decided to discuss Osteoporosis, because it seems that most people support the consumption of milk because it has Calcium ("Got milk?", etc.). "In a 12-year Harvard study of 78,000 women, those who drank milk three times a day actually broke more bones than women who rarely drank milk." Such is stated based on a Harvard study cited as: Feskanich D, Willett WC, Stampfer MJ, Colditz GA. Milk, dietary calcium, and bone fractures in women: a 12-year prospective study. Am J Publ Health. 1997;87:992-997.

The article also states that in elderly men, "those with the highest dairy product consumption had approximately double the risk of hip fracture compared to those with the lowest consumption."

There are other examples included in this article, which, being part of a physicians journal, seem pretty valid to me. I am not studying medicine in school, but as a type 1 diabetic and a student of journalism, I have a lot of interest learning about good and bad dietetic behaviors. Yes, cigarettes are bad (as I previously stated), and I used the example because it is another non-crucial part of many people's lives.

I always welcome a good argument, but such can't be achieved when some can't accept another person's opinion about a drink! Milk is not a deadly liquid, it is simply an everyday part of most people's diet which is not as important as some stubbornly want to believe. In fact, it has been studied to cause health problems.

And, in my modest opinion, it is DISGUSTING.

It's cool man, I enjoy a discussion.

I requested sources that you could cite to back up your statements made earlier. "Debunk" would be inaccurate... rather I wanted to see facts. You do admit that you do not have a scientific/medical background so you do have to be careful in regards to statements and claims in this realm. Personal bias (rather, more officially Observer Bias) as well is something that everyone (scientists and otherwise) all need to be careful of as the impact on our perception of data and results is very much real. You have already noted that you have a very strong dislike for milk and that does affect your reporting on the subject as well as how you pick and choose quotations (consciously or subconsciously) from sources as this is an ages-old bias phenomenon.

The articles you mention above do not state that milk itself is bad or inherently has any negative effect on health but note that milk does not seem to offer a protective effect in regards to fractures. At the same time, the journal articles do say that indeed there appears to potentially be a increased risk of fractures with the intake of excessive calcium intake, but does not go so far as to make a definite correlative statement. The data is just not there to make a definitive statement.

The BMJ article cited by that PCRM site also does not go so far as to outright say high calcium intake = increase risk of fracture. They discuss it quite thoroughly in their discussion section of the article and note that there may be many confounding factors.

An opinion is an opinion, but you've purported so many inaccuracies as fact without solid requisite data to back it up. If you don't like the taste of milk and think its disgusting, thats ok by me, you just cannot make blanket statements of purported negative impact of it when the articles (the primary sources) that are being used to back this up do not make that direct claim and actually spend some time discussing in the articles themselves that any correlation between increased calcium intake and increased fracture incidence is not clear cut and has many confounding factors.

Milk has nutritional value (so not consumed purely for taste), is not one of the biggest contributors to osteoporosis (certainly not by a long shot), and the ingestion isn't outright discouraged for adults either (at least by legitimate medical associations that I am aware of).

[julian_doe]

Chinorlz, that's fair. I agree that is is probably an extremist approach to say that milk is "one of the biggest contributors to osteoporosis."

However, milk consumption has been noted as a characteristic among people who are susceptible to bone fractures in more than one medical study...which is not something that would be beneficial for someone with Osteoporosis. I don't think one has to be a doctor to find such statement to be logical. In fact, I will go as far as to say that this should be considered by ANYONE who wishes to consume milk on a daily basis. As well, I am not sure which "inaccuracy" I have supported without facts, could you please elaborate on that? As well, what other nutritional values does milk posses aside from calcium? Are there any which make the drink unique or necessary for a healthy lifestyle?

I have stated more than once that milk is not a deadly drink, but there are aspects of the drink which are not beneficial to one's health and which I believe the consumer should be aware of. My idea (in it's simplest form), is that simply because it can be swallowed, and because it has been swallowed for so long, does not mean that it is beneficial or necessary for our guts.

[Chinorlz]

Chinorlz, that's fair. I agree that is is probably an extremist approach to say that milk is "one of the biggest contributors to osteoporosis."

However, milk consumption has been noted as a characteristic among people who are susceptible to bone fractures in more than one medical study...which is not something that would be beneficial for someone with Osteoporosis. I don't think one has to be a doctor to find such statement to be logical. In fact, I will go as far as to say that this should be considered by ANYONE who wishes to consume milk on a daily basis. As well, I am not sure which "inaccuracy" I have supported without facts, could you please elaborate on that? As well, what other nutritional values does milk posses aside from calcium? Are there any which make the drink unique or necessary for a healthy lifestyle?

I have stated more than once that milk is not a deadly drink, but there are aspects of the drink which are not beneficial to one's health and which I believe the consumer should be aware of. My idea (in it's simplest form), is that simply because it can be swallowed, and because it has been swallowed for so long, does not mean that it is beneficial or necessary for our guts.

Cool.

The thing is, a lot of the things you say here can be applied to a lot of things. Commonality does not equate cause-effect and this is something that all researchers need to be very careful about. You can be very tempted to extrapolate and conclude that on the surface, it may appear that milk drinkers have a higher fracture rate, but delving deeper is this the real cause/effect?

The articles all conclude that indeed, increased dietary calcium intake may not offer a protective component against fractures

A cursory look at the side of a milk carton would show the nutrient components of milk. One can argue for just about every consumable in regards to if it is unique or necessary for a healthy lifestyle.

Your statement that there are aspects of milk that are not beneficial is appropriate in this context as it does not imply a negative connotation/detrimental effect, rather just that it may not provide some perceived benefits.

Indeed, just because we have done something for a long time doesn't mean we should blindly continue doing so. That being said, animal milk is the staple for millions of people around the world and some groups subsist almost completely on it and have flourished. Cloven hooved animal milk plays a giant if not central role in many other cultures as well such as Tibetans.

[qazwsx]

this ain't some balsamic sauce you get from a local supermarket
incredibly delicious, if you got cash to burn, go for this