What are you reading?

[kira]

not so complicated...

post = after

[Fade to Black]

yeah that's what i used to think all the word meant, and none of its implications...for there to have been a whole century-long movement on this. Perhaps Postmodernism is the irony that is the ultimate tragicomedy of life? :P

[Fuuma]

not so complicated...

post = after

I know you're kidding but it's important to remember postmodernism is an attendum to modernity and not what follows it. More like thesis/anthithesis/synthesis all at once than just a negation of "modernism". As for postmodernity, well we live in it.

[kira]

I know you're kidding but it's important to remember postmodernism is an attendum to modernity and not what follows it. More like thesis/anthithesis/synthesis all at once than just a negation of "modernism". As for postmodernity, well we live in it.

yes, I was kidding.

But I think we have moved through and beyond postmodernism, no? it is now post-postmodern, trans-modern, who knows what it will be called...

[Faust]

In the interest of a diplomatic entrance into this thread, may I say that I absolutely detest Howl?

Right now I am reading Invitation to a Beheading (Nabokov), having just finished Venus in Furs (Sacher-Masoch)

You may not, unless you supply a reason

[Faust]

yes, I was kidding.

But I think we have moved through and beyond postmodernism, no? it is now post-postmodern, trans-modern, who knows what it will be called...

I don't think so. We may have a little bit in some circles of academia, but not in other circles of academia, not in the art world, not in the pop culture world. There is still a huge impact on the "anything-goes" on "all taste is subjective, and therefore all art, literature, etc. is equal," on empowerment over merit, on crass commercialism, etc. etc.

[Fuuma]

I don't think so. We may have a little bit in some circles of academia, but not in other circles of academia, not in the art world, not in the pop culture world. There is still a huge impact on the "anything-goes" on "all taste is subjective, and therefore all art, literature, etc. is equal," on empowerment over merit, on crass commercialism, etc. etc.

Considering postmodernism is a philosophy there has definitely been other venues explored and the ones that started before postmodernism certainly have not been abandonned. It's important to distinguish postmodernism (a philosophy) from postmodernity (the times we live in, the end of grand narrarives with the crash of ideologies and two WW).

[Faust]

Considering postmodernism is a philosophy there has definitely been other venues explored and the ones that started before postmodernism certainly have not been abandonned. It's important to distinguish postmodernism (a philosophy) from postmodernity (the times we live in, the end of grand narrarives with the crash of ideologies and two WW).

Well, considering that no one understands postmodernism as a philosophy, I don't think it had much impact outside narrow circles of the aforementioned academia. But I don't claim to understand it, so what do I know. I was talking about postmodernism as an art/cultural phenomenon.

[Fuuma]

I don't think so. We may have a little bit in some circles of academia, but not in other circles of academia, not in the art world, not in the pop culture world. There is still a huge impact on the "anything-goes" on "all taste is subjective, and therefore all art, literature, etc. is equal," on empowerment over merit, on crass commercialism, etc. etc.

I'm a postmodernist at heart with a hint of opposing philosophies (humanism, structuralism) so watch out, I'll flatten the low/high art distinction if you don't protect your monuments!

[Fuuma]

Well, considering that no one understands postmodernism as a philosophy, I don't think it had much impact outside narrow circles of the aforementioned academia. But I don't claim to understand it, so what do I know. I was talking about postmodernism as an art/cultural phenomenon.

The point where "we lost an objective way of looking at reality, let's reflect on that" is pop-culturally processed to become "everything is the same, arghghghghghg" leaves me rather perplexed and a little bit sad.

[Faust]

My dislike for beat poetry is such that I'm not sure I could adequately express it in words. Suffice it to say that manipulative self-important nonsense composed under the influence of drugs is not my forte. Admittedly, a degree of my dislike for it comes from all the trite bullshit that Howl has spawned, however...

You must admit that judging Howl based on the bullshit it spawned is not very fair, is it? I am the last person to defend the beats, but I thought this particular poem is really beautiful, soulful, and tragic. It really does sound like a howl, a desperate cry of someone oppressed and powerless to the point of debilitation.

[Faust]

The point where "we lost an objective way of looking at reality, let's reflect on that" is pop-culturally processed to become "everything is the same, arghghghghghg" leaves me rather perplexed and a little bit sad.

Indeed. But so does the point of trying to erase objective reality. And, of course while I don't miss fascism and Stalinism, the postmodern world has spawned a universe of stupidity and cultural standards so low that it can make one cry.

[Faust]

absolutely unfair. However, I think the kind of crap that it has spawned is certainly indicative of many of its problems. The stuff that came after Howl shares its central problem: it doesn't really mean anything. There are a few strophes that are beautiful, but for the most part I find it impossible to find power in words that in and of themselves mean nothing. There is no plain sense to the poem, and the only interpretations available are those based off of some "feeling," some catchy turn of phrase. Granted those are all attributes you want in a poem, but stringing together nonsensical provocative imagery for the partial purpose of bragging is entirely insufferable for me.

You think he is actually bragging about his condition and that of the people he knew? In the 1950s United States? It wasn't exactly fashionable to be a druggy or a homosexual the way it is now. I mean the poem was taken to court for obscenity because it contains homosexual imagery.

I am also not sure what kind of meaning you are looking for?

[Fuuma]

You think he is actually bragging about his condition and that of the people he knew? In the 1950s United States? It wasn't exactly fashionable to be a druggy or a homosexual the way it is now. I mean the poem was taken to court for obscenity because it contains homosexual imagery.

I am also not sure what kind of meaning you are looking for?

Isn't that poem using erudite references along with the matter of fact description of what is going on and modern use of imagery coupled with free associations. I'm not a Ginsberg specialist by any means but it is definitely more complex than it appears at a first reading. I like Rimbaud and Saint-John Perse so what do I know?

[Faust]

Bragging about all the people he knew? Sure, I absolutely think so. And it wasn't fashionable to be a druggy or a homosexual, but it was fashionable to be "looking for something," so to speak. And considering his attitude on himself it's my opinion that he felt he was creating a fashion.

In terms of meaning...I'm looking for plain sense. Ignore the message beneath the words, any allegory, any political message...what is the poem about? Perhaps you have more insight than I, but I've never for the life of me been able to figure out what "who plunged themselves under meat trucks looking for an egg" means. Hell, with that line I don't even know what the underlying message is supposed to be.

My problem with Howl is that when I read it I feel like I'm reading gibberish. Sort of a monkey with a typewriter situation, except the monkey's still not quite there.

I suppose you hate most poetry then? I mean, there isn't much in poetry in terms of plot, if that's they kind of meaning you are looking for. To me, the poem is clearly about the situation of an intellectual outsider in the 1950s US, a country that was at its most conservative, paranoid, and fatuously prosperous moment, a country that oppressed anyone who did not subscribe to its culture of fake happiness. I mean it anticipated the entire cultural revolution of the 1960s. Not sure how much more meaning you need.