Carol Christian Poell

[MWNN]

Looks like a straight jacket!!

Nice jacket but the price is good too. I wonder is it really hard to produce this ? I am not a tailor but looks very simple to create )
Maybe Zam Barrett could help us in this question )

[BSR]

how much is it? it's probably made of selvedge, so it's the fabric that is expensive.

[seenmy]

its selfedge, its not strictly the fabric that is expensive (creates cost on self edge pieces) it is more the un economic use of fabric to create the garment due to the construction process,all woven fabric has a selvedge.I would imagine the above garment has far more to it on close inspection in terms of the pattern cutting for the concept, which on a selfedge piece to any one who understands garment construction is mind blowing

[AENAON]

Carol Christian used in his FE-MALE 09 collection this ''cut'' in different versions, jacket, shirt, coat.. It is not necessarily connected with the ''selvage'' concept but more with the construction of garments as one-piece tailored jackets

[MWNN]

how much is it? it's probably made of selvedge, so it's the fabric that is expensive.

One buyer told me that it costs more than 5000eur.

[lowrey]

Carol Christian used in his FE-MALE 09 collection this ''cut'' in different versions, jacket, shirt, coat.. It is not necessarily connected with the ''selvage'' concept but more with the construction of garments as one-piece tailored jackets

I'm not sure what your point was but this piece was racked among the selvedge "capsule" which he presented in its own corner, so I would say it has plenty to do with the selvedge concept, as well as obviously his experiments on utilizing a single piece of material.

[Chinorlz]

One buyer told me that it costs more than 5000eur.

Short of vicuna (and even then, at required yardage costs nowhere close to that kind of price to create), ain't no fabric that expensive my friend!

[MWNN]

Short of vicuna (and even then, at required yardage costs nowhere close to that kind of price to create), ain't no fabric that expensive my friend!

Agree, but later another buyer from another shop told me that the price for this piece is very high too. That's why I'm interested why does it cost so much if it looks very simple, and even if it is hard to create , why the price is so high? There is no leather even in it. Also buyers told me that this "high price tag" only for items (square look) and they are much more expensive than other top items in CCP.

[seenmy]

man hours are more expensive than yards of fabric,along with the extra fabric consumption on a 'selfedge' piece (note it is titled selfedge not selvedge which is the fabric term) the sheer amount of work that goes in to these pieces I think is where the extra comes in, not even taking in to account the time it probably took him/his studio to develop the process for solving this design 'problem' then the total head fuck of how to grade it, as a lot of the work in these garments I think is done by pressing out the fabric to make a curve or different shape from the straight selvedge of the fabric.these pieces really push the boundries of craft

[hallucination]

I'm not sure what your point was but this piece was racked among the selvedge "capsule" which he presented in its own corner, so I would say it has plenty to do with the selvedge concept, as well as obviously his experiments on utilizing a single piece of material.

The selvedge jacket are contained by the idea of preserving the "one-piece-ness" of the selvedge, while dead-end is another way round.

They are relatively achieving the same goal.



As to 5000 euro wonton denim jacket,

[AKA*NYC]

it's probably too much to ask but if someone (seenmy or albert) have a moment to explain the selfedge process as done by carol i'm sure a lot of people, myself definitely included, would really appreciate it. i think i sort of get it but not entirely. isn't it possible to manufacture varying sections of fabric with selvedge to cheat the process?

[lowrey]

I'm not a professional but here is my take on it based on what I've understood and partly been told by CCP.

selvedge is only on the side of the fabric, and fabrics are usually weaved in certain widths. thus if you want to have a full garments length of selvedge visible, you need a lot of fabric. if there are multiple selvedge seams on a garment, for example in Carol's case there were some that had a lot, you need a lot of fabric length and there is a lot of excess because you're only using the edges.

for example, here is a picture of just one side of a single leg of selvedge denim:


(random pic found on google)

to make the legs with a double selvedge seam, you need to multiply the length of the fabric by 4, whereas if you were using the entire width of the fabric, you'd probably manage with 1x the width.


seam of a single leg with two selvedges

this is just one example, Carol used crazy amounts of selvedge in some pieces, for example the fly and pocket edges on pants, these are something like 2x6" pieces of fabric in the pattern but in theory use 6x60" of fabric because you need the 6" of selvedge (very roughly speaking). Or an entire waist band, its a small piece, but if you cut it vertically along the selvedge, you need for example 32" of fabric just to cut a 2" high waistband to get the entire edge.

Of course, they are able to use some (probably a majority) of fabric from the center of the material as well so its not all scrap, but still it increases the use of material and I'm sure complicates the pattern making a lot.

as for the cheating you mentioned, I don't know enough about the fabric weaving process to answer this but I'm sure zam and co can chime in. my guess would be that fabrics are produced in standard widths for a reason, making a very narrow strip of fabric to maximize the selvedge would probably be just as expensive as making a wide piece.

experts feel free to correct any part where I'm mistaken as this is partly assumption, partly hearsay.

[cjbreed]

this is partly why i find the use of insane amounts of selvedge, well, insane. i mean i think there is nothing inherent in the use of the edge of the fabric that gives it any significant benefit over the rest of the fabric. i mean drawing from my old days in the denim world i think it was pretty well known that the only real benefit to selvedge denim was that it indicated it may have been made on old school shuttle looms by manufacturers that stayed true to older, more authentic processes. like the use of thicker, more durable fabric, natural indigo dye, and no pre-washing which leads to the sick fades we all know and love. but the actual selvage is only an indicator of what may have been the manufacturing process. it is not necessarily of any real benefit. the truth is there is a ton of crap denim out there made with selvage denim. and the only real benefit of the older manufacturing process is nostalgia for small batch handmade production and of course the sick fade aging process. and this is all specific to denim. beyond denim i don't know what the benefit is at all.

i'm just sayin, the fact that it is selvage, denim or not, really means nothing but that some fabric was wasted or the garment was made on a very narrow loom.

for ccp it may have something to do with the idea that every selvage line is a straight line. and then the whole thing may tie into that "Restraint" idea. designing within limits, constricting the body, or morphing the body. in which case, it all makes sense.

[Faust]

its selfedge, its not strictly the fabric that is expensive (creates cost on self edge pieces) it is more the un economic use of fabric to create the garment due to the construction process,all woven fabric has a selvedge.I would imagine the above garment has far more to it on close inspection in terms of the pattern cutting for the concept, which on a selfedge piece to any one who understands garment construction is mind blowing

yep. very unsustainable. poell is not down with green fashion.

[Spencer]

cjbreed, dude, it's all about next level badassery. FABRIC BE DAMNED! Didn't you get the memo?

Seriously though, I've never cared more about the construction process of a garment until I discovered ccp... or sz... or this thread. Whichever order it was. Regardless of whether it's wearable, or god forbid, somewhat comfortable to wear, his clothes make me want to learn more about what goes into clothes. Other than me. So yay. Please continue.