Carol Christian Poell

[seenmy]

I think a lot of people are missing the point of the use of the slevedge in the 'selfedge' pieces, as stated several times in posts in this thread selvedge on fabric is not unique nor a special characteristic of a piece of woven fabric.

The selvedge is not about luxuray, regardless of how it might be sold to you as a mark of quality in say a denim, in this case the selvedge from what I see is used to illustrate a mastery of construction,if you notice the use of the selvedge on 'selfedge' pieces is not exclusive to straight edges or seams that run in a straight line this is where the mastery is, to manipulate a straight edge over a curve or a diagonal,without warping the rest of the pattern piece. this would take a ton of experimentation to get right and standardise let alone a lot of skilled workmanship to execute to this standard. the products show off a mastery of tailoring and understanding of pattern making, the use of the selvedge I guess is merely dick waving (deseveredly so) so you can understand, (if you understand a bit about fabric) that something special is going on. it also may tie to some artistic concept but I am not privy to if that exists or if it is releveant, Im just looking at the garment in front of me and I look it as product not art.

[philip nod]

the artistic concept is right in front of you. self edge / selvedge

[Faust]

the artistic concept is right in front of you. self edge / selvedge

premature ejaculation.

[zamb]

first off, with respect to fabric, the words self edge and selvedge means exactly the same thing, so there is no need to confuse the two.

Fabric is generally made of two sets of yarns, one set going vertically and the other horizontally . The term self edge.........which became selvedge (its sounds the same if you say both words quickly) means that the horizontal yards are wrapped back against themselves when they have been woven the established width of the fabric being woven.

Fabric can be woven in many different widths, ranging from 12 inches all the way up to 120 inches depending on the width of the loom........most fabric used to make clothing generally comes in either 45, 48, 54 or 60 inches width, as most commercial looms used in the mills are made of those widths...........

Silks generally come in 36 or 45 inches wide, when in 60 inches its usually more expensive because its more difficult to produce

Cottons and wools it doesn't really matter as the mills don't have a problem producing fabrics of wider widths from these yarns.......

Most Japanese denim I've seen comes in a 24" width, which effectively makes the fabric and garment more expensive because it requires more yardage of fabric to get the pieces to make a single garment........

Now to Carol Specifically.........

None of us know for certain if the fabric is being wasted in the self edge concept because we don't know how wide the original fabrics were.......we don't even know if the fabrics were woven specifically for the purpose of executing these garments, and as such would require him paying a special price to the mills to commission this, and thus make the prices of the garment higher and may be a more efficient means of producing the items....
Also, if he is using standard 45 or 60" wide fabrics, he can always use the excess fabric from the center of the yardage to make other garments and thus minimize waste......

From a purely conceptual standpoint, i might be wrong, but here is what i understand from this sevedge / self edge concept.

the selvege of fabric exist to prevent the fabric from fraying along the length of the fabric, it is the natural edge of the fabric, so then, Carol might be communicating transferring this idea seen in the fabric to the clothing themselves that's being made................wherever there is an edge/ seam in the garment, lets make it from the edge of the fabric (the very material used to make the garment......) because overlocked seams and other types of finishes are in a way, artificial, existing to solve the problem of the fabric fraying, so to use the selvedge/ self edge could suggest a more natural , yet more difficult way of executing the garments......

the use of selvede in garments is not a new idea, in tailoring it is often used in pocket facings, loops, waistbands etc, as a time saving mechanism to avoid having to overclock or create some kind of artificial seams in those areas, however, for the most part it has always been used in cheaper garments..........
One of the beauty of CCP's work is he has a way of taking the Mundane, the unattractive and elevating it to the highest of his craft...........the self edge concept shows this. In the same way scarring on leather and such would be cut away and avoided in traditional shoe making, and leather stacked heels would be sanded down for uniformity and neatness.............Carol rejects those things and instead elevates them to the highest level of craftsmanship by making them beautiful .

Re: pricing.

there are many factors that goes into the prices of garments, only the dumb would reduce then to , Materials + Labour = price...........
No real business could exist like that, there is rent to pay, profits to be made, new ideas to develop, administrative staff to employ, space for showing and such to be paid for, all of these things has to come from the money made frrom selling clothes..............

Why do you guys think I don't have a website as yet, cause I cant pay for the kind I want as yet.......Also, businesses can sell thier products for whatever value they think it has,...............left to the consumer to decide if they are willing to pay........

Do you guys think Kobe Bryant or Lebron James throwing a ball in a basket is worth 120 million over six or seven years?

[lowrey]

I'm not familiar with the piece you're talking about, but selvedge itself doesn't really tell you much as most bolts of fabric have it. I could run down to Jo-ann's, buy some junk at $2 a yard and make you a jacket with a selvedge collar and hemline just by cutting those pieces off the selvedge.

you could apply that logic to any material. "why does the fabric on this jacket cost €50 a yard if I can buy some shitty fabric for €2 and make my own jacket?"

unless you actually found Carol's fabric at Jo-ann's, of course.

the point is that his fabrics are expensive to begin with and some are probably custom made for him, add the fact that having several feet of selvedge visible on a single garments increases the required amount of fabric, and you have an expensive jacket.

and to be clear I'm not justifying prices, I'm just saying why using selvedge can increase fabric cost.

[lowrey]

thanks for the insight zam!

Now to Carol Specifically.........

None of us know for certain if the fabric is being wasted in the self edge concept because we don't know how wide the original fabrics were.......we don't even know if the fabrics were woven specifically for the purpose of executing these garments, and as such would require him paying a special price to the mills to commission this, and thus make the prices of the garment higher and may be a more efficient means of producing the items....
Also, if he is using standard 45 or 60" wide fabrics, he can always use the excess fabric from the center of the yardage to make other garments and thus minimize waste.....

to add to this;

I was told by CCP that there is some waste in fabric, but also that they use what they can from the center of the yardage. Most materials are used in various garments which helps in utilizing more of it.

I do believe some of the fabrics are woven specifically for this purpose, for example the jacket which I mentioned - it's a single piece vertically and both the hemline and collar (the square cut as seen in the denim jacket) are selvedge, so the fabric would need to be exactly as wide as the jacket is high. I think this is a major factor in the pricing of the selvedge pieces.

[Chinorlz]

Chiming in a bit late. Zam covered just about everything and ultimately a lot of the discussion returns to cost vs. value.

Naturally the items that are made in a more limited amount, use more material (in relation to items/garments that don't have the requirements that a selvedge based piece does) and potentially take more work would command a higher asking/MSRP/wholesale price. For many of the designers who we support, we are paying at least some amount for the idea versus the item/material cost as a utilitarian object.

Perhaps because it is in a lower price bracket, but Ann's feather necklace continues to climb in asking price to ridiculous levels for what you are objectively getting in material costs, but what people are more than happy to pay for is the idea and artistic creation.

It's quite common in the art world to say "they paid X million for that?!" Value is what we place on an item. After operating/material costs are covered, the rest is being paid for that hard-to-quantify idea of artistry.

I personally do not think the flat lay selvedge jacket is super wearable but that is not the idea IMO. It is a concept and a presentation that one is paying for. The presumably high quality materials and precision/expertise in construction are almost secondary as they are to be expected. If you're looking for clothing as art, this is that piece. To me it is not much different than the boots embedded in the block of latex or the object dyed and tanned spiral leather pants that corkscrew. They of course have a price as does everything including an object tanned horse, but how "worth it" they are would be in the eye and wallet of the beholder.

If you're looking for art as clothing, then spend it on a CCP suit or leather.

[seenmy]

or a selfedge suit or coat...

[cjbreed]

...in this case the selvedge from what I see is used to illustrate a mastery of construction,if you notice the use of the selvedge on 'selfedge' pieces is not exclusive to straight edges or seams that run in a straight line this is where the mastery is, to manipulate a straight edge over a curve or a diagonal,without warping the rest of the pattern piece. this would take a ton of experimentation to get right and standardise let alone a lot of skilled workmanship to execute to this standard. the products show off a mastery of tailoring and understanding of pattern making, the use of the selvedge I guess is merely dick waving (deseveredly so) so you can understand, (if you understand a bit about fabric) that something special is going on. it also may tie to some artistic concept but I am not privy to if that exists or if it is releveant, Im just looking at the garment in front of me and I look it as product not art.

this is the point i was making when i said that there is no inherent value in the woven fabric being selvage. but designing a garment with selvage literally everywhere, since every selvage line must be a straight line, is a technical feat. cutting a pattern using a large amount of straight lines to fit a body that has zero straight lines requires a great deal of time, effort, and knowledge.

however i still believe that with ccp it is never only about the technical mastery. (i believe this partly because the selvage pieces generally do not look/fit as well as the others). there is always a conceptual element. and i believe a great deal of it is left up to the observer. ccp not known for coughing up explanations as far as i'm aware. but there are common themes that may be at play here. the whole "edge of the self" thing. clothing as boundary. protectionism. juxtaposition. beauty in that which is flawed or unfinished. straightening that which is curved. bending that which is straight (L belt, U belt this season).

i dunno. stuff like that

[Chinorlz]

SS08

[MJRH]

Re: the possible conceptual meaning behind Poell's use of selvedge, runner had some great insights on that back in February. I highly recommend reviewing them to anyone interested in this topic. (Context)

[Patroklus]

you could apply that logic to any material. "why does the fabric on this jacket cost €50 a yard if I can buy some shitty fabric for €2 and make my own jacket?"

That's not what I said. What I said is that you can't judge the quality of a fabric merely by the presence of selvedge.

[andrew]

Re: pricing.

there are many factors that goes into the prices of garments, only the dumb would reduce then to , Materials + Labour = price...........
No real business could exist like that, there is rent to pay, profits to be made, new ideas to develop, administrative staff to employ, space for showing and such to be paid for, all of these things has to come from the money made frrom selling clothes..............

Why do you guys think I don't have a website as yet, cause I cant pay for the kind I want as yet.......Also, businesses can sell thier products for whatever value they think it has,...............left to the consumer to decide if they are willing to pay........

I dont know if that dumb comment was aimed at me but for the record i too have worked in the industry for several years, not as long as you and i do not own my own company granted, but that doesn't mean i dont know anything about it, and one thing that was ubiquitous where ever i have worked was that when costing, people figure out what the retail value will most likely be. I do not know many other companies that would charge five grand for what is essentially a denim jacket. I think that it is great that CCP has the following that he can charge what he needs to to support his company and people will pay it because they believe in his work but i was meerly stating that i believe in this particular garment the price is unwarrented which i still believe.

[BECOMING-INTENSE]

It just occurred to me that Poell should get into sex toys business. He could probably come up with some seriously warped shit.

For your role-playing pleasures ...










FE-MALE s/s 2000

[lowrey]

That's not what I said. What I said is that you can't judge the price of a fabric merely by the presence of selvedge.

that is obvious, I don't recall anyone claiming so. you can't judge the price of fabric by its colour or thickness either.

What I (and others to my understanding) have said all along is that using huge amounts of selvedge can increase the need of fabric, which most certainly is expensive to begin with.