NEXT

[525252]

Yes but the matter itself is rooted in the very complicated issue of mass consumption and production habits.
The poorer work for the middle class and the ultra rich control them all, how can they not be relevant to this discussion?

[cremaster]

Where is the inequity in GBS work?
I assume -
He pays a fair price for his materials ( they are not cheap), pays his staff and himself a fair wage, uses the most sustainable work practices, and charges a fair price for his finished product.
Where is the unfairness in that?
Like Faust said I don't think he is living the life of luxury.
After reading the "what is $4000 suit worth" article I think he is just carving out a simple living like most of us.

[525252]

The inequity isn't in his work, its implied by the fact that there is such a thing as a $3000 coat and then a $20 coat. Nothing is unfair about GBS's work, its just not something accessible to or even in the same realm as the everyday people he criticises.

[mizzar]

adding to what runner said in the ccp thread's 'permanence vs ecstasy' tangent, i don't think aesthetic revelation runs contrary to durability and honesty in construction.

But sadly a lot of designers discussed here think contrary to you beliefs.
From my experience only a small portion of niche clothes have some good quality\craftmanship.
And i'm talking not about holes in basics, i'm talking about missing toothes from exella zippers in shoes, buttons snaping on basicly new RO parkas, denim, pants etc. L&F pants from overtreated fabric falling appart in days not even weeks. Coats that arive at stores with teared lining or develop holes from one time trying on, just because patternmaker don't know that sleeve lining needs to be larger then actual sleeve. I'm talking about lazy excusess "warning! item undergo vintage treatment so if it fall apart while you hold it for a minute, it's your fault". This tag is doing more damage to 10 years jeans then 10 h&m pants.

Of course we all here agree with Geoffrey B. Small about consumersim (ok maybe Macro is not but what do i know), and girls who buy 1000500 dresses every month. But we are not them. If i buy from any chainstore, i promise you it won't be forgot in closet, i will wear it to death, reanimate it, and then wear it even more, then i will donate it to some friends who live in village where they, and after them their sons and dougters, will wear it. Ain't we all?

You can find some 10 years old leather pants from Carpe Diem in good condition, that were in use for 1-2 days a week all this 10 years and they would be in good condition.
But could we find drkshdw hogwash jeans without holes and rips after year of use?

200 usd pants that last for 10 years is good.
500 usd pants that look cool but last for 10 days is bad.
That's all i'm trying to say.

[Geoffrey B. Small]

wow

Wow, I am going to try address as many of the recent posts here as best as I can….


thanks so much Merz, am 100% agreed with you this time!

Cremaster, same to you with many thanks as always...

[Geoffrey B. Small]

wow 2

Dear 525252,

thanks for your posts, please understand that I am criticizing the companies, system, and the interests that have methodically devastated and eliminated the middle class and enlarged the poor, far more than any "everyday people." In fact, that is why I believe awareness of these issues must be raised. Most everyday people are unaware of what and why these things are happening to them, and they need to know the truth first and foremost, in order to effect any change that will help their situation. Many are victims of a system that has made them dependent upon feeding and financing it…at the same time that it is destroying their own capacity to earn a sustainable living. This is happening everywhere now.

And before any solutions can be addressed, the problem must be defined. In the words of the great inventor Charles F. Kettering "a problem well-defined is a problem half- solved." So when I see posts on a forum as important in our industry now as SZ is today (and as pivotal as this Next thread represents itself to be) that deem the very system and interests that are at the cause and root of the problems all of us are facing as being OK or acceptable especially in regards to making purchases from, I will not remain silent like the majority of my esteemed colleagues in the business- but will speak my mind and tell the other side of the story… A story I know only too well, that is based upon over 3 and a half decades in this industry at all levels from the inside out. For brevity and honesty's sake, not always diplomatically delivered, but always the straight story as I see it...

[Geoffrey B. Small]

wow 3

Dear Mizzar,

thanks for your post and pricing info. But please try to understand I was referring to Japan prices in Johnbull stores, not outside of Japan where prices will definitely be higher due to importation, customs duties and retailer markups (for example, Ivo Milan is near where I live and work in Italy and is quite an expensive shop). The comment I was responding to was in reference to Uniqlo and its products, which is a Japanese company with its principal market still in Japan where it is a huge company. Therefore, the pricing and product references needed to be related to Japan only. Outside of Japan, Uniqlo is not the same thing both in terms of product offering and market positioning, and neither is Johnbull. And my points were related specifically to both company's principal market and business. I apologize for not being more clear about this in my previous comment. You can view a few Japan market Johnbull jeans and prices in Japanese yen which fall within the parameters I described in my comment here for reference: http://www.privatelabo.jp/fs/johnbul...rival/11679-11

And you are absolutely right, not all SZ designers have the same quality or production standards, each one must be viewed and checked out on their own merits, and there is a lot false "artisan" fashion going on these days that is really being made by industrial ("we will never see the real customer anyway") methods… I will leave it at that for the moment...

[Faust]

Jesus, mizzar, where do you get all those terrible clothes? Most of my stuff holds up splendidly well.

I completely agree that in general there has been erosion of quality in designer goods. Anyone who follows fashion for more than 5 years or so can attest to that.

[Geoffrey B. Small]

wow 4

Dear Faust,

thank you as always for your spot-on comments, observations and moderation. SZ remains the only fashion and/or design forum on which I actively participate and much of that is thanks to you and others who have continued to maintain a far higher standard in discussions across the board which has led to more and more leaders in this industry (current and future, I believe) to watch, read and listen to what people are saying here….

[Geoffrey B. Small]

wow 5.1

And now, alas dear Gavagai,

I am not really sure what you are expecting of me… but I will try to explain to you a few things about myself in hopes that maybe you can understand what I am saying and yes, what I am actually doing a little more than your comments apparently indicate.

One, I am one single human being and do not believe myself to be capable of either saving the world or being a "champion of the people," nor is it my goal in life.

While I may believe in Jesus, Abraham, Mohammed or Buddha, I am not any one of them. At this stage, I have had enough to do just raising my family and keeping my tiny company, art, craft, reputation, and integrity alive in an industry and a world that has not been easy to say the least. I have never been homeless, never been without food, and I thank the Lord Almighty every single day as a result. But I know enough people who have suffered these situations, and have had moments in my life where I felt I was not so far away from being at risk of such things happening to me, that I take nothing for granted and when it comes to all the suffering that is going down now around each and every one of us, I can only say to myself "there but for the grace of God go I."

I am not wealthy, I believe I live a very modestly, and while we are currently blessed with a lot of work from our clients, I put just about every penny I earn from making our clothes and taking care of our customers back into our work, our tools, our materials, and the people who work with me in order to do our job better and better for our customers. You may think our work is unaffordable. I will tell you I believe otherwise. I think H&M is unaffordable, especially if you are super-short on money. And especially if you are truly poor. If I was homeless, the last thing I would want to depend upon for my survival from the elements outside would be a wardrobe from H&M, Zara, or their like. I have said it a million times, and I will say it again--the best value apart from having newly made serious clothes, is good-used serious clothes. Both are way cheaper than the alternative, and they will help keep you alive when things go really bad.

When you are homeless, your clothes become your first line of shelter. So many people have become homeless in the last decade (the numbers are 1 in every 50 individuals in the world per year), that part of what we do is try to design every piece we make now as if it would be the very last piece of clothing we would own in a long, long time. Our target now is 25-30 years of use. Unfortunately, yes, it costs some real money to build this kind of stuff, but at least there is someone still around who knows how to do it. I view that as one of the things, I as a single human being can do to start to deal with the problem. This is part of designing successfully for people in bad economies. But it is not new thing for us.


For example, I met a customer recently, who I made a dress for in 1980. She is still wearing the dress and it has held up very well and still looks awesome on her. I charged her 85 dollars to make it for her 32 years ago. You do the math and calculate her cost per year, and then tell me GBS is unaffordable. Adjusted for inflation to 2010 dollars, it comes out to just $6.90 per year. Less than a dollar a month. Compare it to the cost per year of a 6-week $29.99 throwaway from H&M and my work blows it away for low pricing. And she is only one of many. I have another customer I made a suit for him to get married in, in 1989. I charged him about 600 dollars. With some alterations work, he can still wear the suit today, that's 23 years for 600 bucks, Less than 30 dollars a year and dropping for a handmade canvas front suit good enough to get yourself hitched in to the most important person in your life, get a job in an important interview with, make a big sale when you need it the most, and get yourself steadily promoted in life because you don't look like an H&M spendthrift to those who are in a position to move you up, but rather someone who understands the value of money when it is most hard to come by and never wastes it. I am not joking, many employers take this kind of thing very seriously.

I rail not just against "big retailers," I rail against big companies in general- because they are the problem. With decades of mass advertising they have changed the thinking of the consumer and have wiped out the concept of serious clothes. With industrialization, de-skilling, global outsourcing, and merger & acquisition metastasis, they have also wiped out the technical human skilled capacity to create, produce and build serious clothes.

Serious clothes is what I have dedicated my whole life to making and bringing back into the reality and consciousness of our society in general. Serious clothes are designed and built to last for decades and even generations. I cannot build serious clothes nor maintain the livelihoods and families of the people skilled and educated enough to collaborate with me to build them, and charge sh_thouse work prices at the same time. Nobody can. It is unsustainable.

Nor do I believe I can build a company that can truly build and provide serious clothes to supply all of the masses at a price they can afford in a single lifetime.

The damage to our culture and our society is simply too large and too fundamental at the moment to surmount.

And to grow any faster than we are growing now will force us to compromise and change our product's quality, value and aesthetics.

Because what I have witnessed done over the past 35 years of my career in this industry, is the systematic and methodical degradation and destruction of culture and craft across our planet by a philosophy and a system that is built on short-term gain for a very small minority of people and interests, at the expense of many. I know this because by chance, I went to school with some of these people a long time ago, and I have worked in the same industry with them for an equally long period of time. I know how they think and I know how they operate. I was trained to do the same things they do now. But after seeing what it does at the personal and human level, I rejected this training and chose a different path to follow and live by.

And I will be darned if I am going to sit around and watch what they are doing to the rest of us and keep silent. I therefore, if you will please pardon me, feel I have a professional and ethical responsibility and indeed, obligation to speak up and inform the relatively small group of intelligent readers on this forum and in the small but highly influential fashion and cultural circles that I travel in, to speak the truth about things as I see them - not lie about them or cover them up.

I need you to understand that I do this consistently, at great risk to my career and my business, not because I want to be a champion of the people, but simply because somebody has got to tell people the other side of the story they do not see from the outside.

What they do with what I tell them, is up to them. They have been informed. And I have met my obligation not to be guilty of having witnessed what I have witnessed and kept it secret from those who would be harmed by not knowing about what I have seen, unlike many of my colleagues who prefer to keep their mouths shut and go on trying to make their money, while the damage that also affects them as well, continues to go on unabated. For them, I have few words to say.

And too few in this industry so far, have had the guts or the self-perceived freedom or obligation if you will, to do so… so it might as well be me, because I have been able to get to a point in life and career where I don't care what this industry or fashion people in general think about me anymore and what they can or cannot do to damage my business (which believe me, is what most designers are most concerned about these days).

I believe that if I make the very best product and value in the world bar none, I will have a customer out there who will support the work. And by doing this level of work, I will set a new standard and a new model for the industry to look at, think about, and if it continues to prove to be successful… follow as they usually have done so many, many times before. So I focus on that, and that alone. And to do that job, I must charge the fair prices necessary to take care of all of the people that make it happen, and to keep them in good enough shape so that the work can go on, and go forward, and we can continue to take better and better care of our customers, and slowly and very carefully, try to teach, train, and develop new master practitioners of this great human art and what the Japanese used to call "basic life skill," to carry forward the culture of how human beings can best protect themselves from nature's elements and live a better, more comfortable life with the articles they put on their bodies, one individual person at a time...

[Geoffrey B. Small]

wow 5.2

(continued from above)

Because in the end, the problem is we just do not value people nearly enough today. And we do not value clothes for what they are and what they should be, nearly enough.

To illustrate my point, if you have not worked in a clothes factory already, I would suggest you try making some clothes from scratch all by yourself someday soon, and see how it goes and how long it takes you, and what you have to go through to complete even the simplest garment adequately well. And then if you get that far, next time you walk into one of those stores we are talking about, reflect a little bit on the price they are asking you to pay, and think about the time you spent trying to make a single garment and all the other things that would also have to be done to get a garment made and in a store, and all the costs that would have to be covered so that nobody got cheated along the way, and then maybe, you will begin to understand where I, a clothes maker of almost 4 decades am coming from.

So what can I, one single relatively obscure avant-garde fashion designer and tailor do to help arrive at the solution to the world's problems? Well, I know I can do two things for sure…

1) I can build, maintain and operate a new design and business model at the Paris avant-garde collection level on a limited scale that sets a new standard for sustainable, environmental and ethical wardrobe products at the top designer level in the world. From our totally unique position, this model can lead the industry and provide a roadmap for where we think it needs to go. To finance this working model, I do need to service one of the only markets that still exists for designers anymore in the world today. And that is the hyper-luxury market, which by the way, is the only segment of the clothing business in the world today that is growing. So, believe me, I am not alone and if you think working in this sector is easy these days, you've got a lot to learn. But I did not have much choice. If you were a customer of ours in the 90's, you would know that we were the most cost-competitive Paris designer level collection in the business. If you can believe it, our average retail price was under 100 dollars per article. And we were producing and shipping some 5,000 pieces per season (versus the 500 we do now). We achieved this through our extensive specialization and our key role in the recycle design revolution and production technologies and were recognized as world leaders in this sector and leading proponents of a Paris design "democratization." . However, these prices were eventually both too low to (a) provide both a sufficient operating margin to maintain the great people who worked with us during this period and keep them in the field; and (b) by the end of the decade, the already low retail pricing was already becoming too high for a quickly shrinking and diminishing upper to middle designer market. This period also marked the beginnings of the rise of the large multinational cheap clothing corporation businesses and the large multinational luxury group corporation businesses, both of whom took a tremendous and lethal toll on the independent designer and retailer part of the industry. Then 9/11 happened, and all concept of economic stability was lost. Social and economic changes accelerated across Japan, Europe (immediately after the Euro was introduced) and the US (especially under the Bush Administration) and the middle class's spending power and discretionary income spiraled down ever more quickly.

I can tell you this because I saw it happening live. Few industries are as quickly affected by economic change than ours. Our game was already one of the riskiest and toughest in the world, and now it was getting way more so. Most of my contemporaries were blown out in one way or another of the game. A few who had been successful enough before and played it well enough were able to sell out to some of the new big corporate fashion groups, and eventually get out of the business with some money in the bank.

For the few of us that had survived up this point as independents and still lived to tell the tale, we had to move upmarket, way up… or get out of the business. The only other option was to try to swing a job designing for a big corporation and play their game for as long as they decided to keep you (and for most, that's about 3 seasons; and except for very, very few exceptions - that just doesn't pan out for the long haul, especially if you're trying to support a family).

And 2) I can speak up and speak out to my audience, my market and my circles of influence to raise awareness of the problems and issues, and suggest solutions using the platforms that I have available which have been built up over many many years, including SZ. I find the Next thread particularly important in this respect, as it deals with what people think, perceive and conceptualize what might be the next direction for design and industry to be. As someone who has done the "next" thing in this industry many many times over (including what we are doing right now), I can tell you (as you already well know) that I have my opinions.

Whether you agree with them or not, I do appreciate having the opportunity to communicate them with people who may make a difference both now and in the years to come as either consumers or practitioners in the field, and no place in fashion media comes as close to that as SZ does today. So, here I am. I will not remain silent, and when somebody says that the quality of one of these companies' products or practices is acceptable when I believe it is not, I will say so and why (indeed, that is where this whole recent string of posts began).

As for solutions, I am doing as much as I can, being one single human being given my resources and organization, and do not feel I have anything to hide.

To do more, I am more than open to approaching a "bigger solution" for "all of the people" that might serve to resolve more of the problem faster in collaboration with any one of the large corporations who up until now have created, profited, and enlarged the problem enormously - if any one of them ever showed any true commitment and interest in doing so. God knows, they know where to find me (they sure manage to grab our design and product ideas fast enough). But that has not happened. If it did, I would immediately advise and direct them that first and foremost, they would have to radically change their entire business model and corporate culture to succeed.

But alas, I believe they clearly know that fact already, and that is precisely what is preventing them from doing so.

So the solution lies with the customer. And the customers must all act together to achieve any real effect. And if they can do so, their effect can be most powerful. First, stop buying from these companies and giving them your money unless they completely change their ways of doing business. What they are doing now to you, me, and the rest of our civilization is not happening anymore. It is totally "out" to coin an old fashion phrase, whether you are rich, poor, or anywhere in between.

Second, choose your wardrobe pieces and purchase with extra care and strive for long-term value. If money is tight, buy good used clothes instead of bad new ones, seek and support good local tailors where you are (they can make used clothes go a long way), support and buy from good used charitable orgs like Salvation Army and Goodwill Industries (look into what they do and you will also see your money is going a long way to help a lot of people). Waste not want not, get a few really good pieces that you can always count on wearing instead of more and more stuff that you won't really need or use anyway. If money is less tight, seek and support good local designers in your area or support some of the retailers, artisans and designers you like on Etsy.com, or for sure step up to those on SZ (via the classifieds like the superb buying Merz has pulled off in his comment above, or through the established retail channels) or any other independents where your purchases will help people trying to do it on their own continue to fight the good fight and develop their work on a real human to human based level. You may be amazed at the satisfaction you will get in doing so.

Spend some time and really think about making your purchases count and the people and work you want to support in your community, be it physical or virtual. Your choices have a real effect on the world around you.

And where it is going.

So, you're absolutely right, Gavagai.
I am not the solution.

You are.

And that is why I need to say what I have been saying.

I hope you can understand, even if not right now.

But maybe somewhere down the line in your future someday you'll remember some of the things I have had to say on this forum.

Like my one-time photographer Karl Lagerfeld once said,

"whether you like it or you don't like it… it's not my problem.
The job of the designer is to propose."

Thanks for reading.

Best wishes,

Geoffrey
(for all wow posts 1-5)

[Faust]

Faust, before in the thread you put down an idea because it involved too much mental effort on the part of the customer and said the kids are okay. Now the kids are not okay and there's not enough mental effort?

An intelligent and responsible shopping choice does not have to come with a PhD in sustainability. We are discussing different things.

My 8.5 year old knows that she should not be eating junk food because it's not healthy. She doesn't have to read Michael Pollan's books to come to that conclusion.

And going back to my point about education. She had her first day of school today and her new teacher forbid junk food and sugary drinks in the classroom. Unlike me, she will grow up knowing more about healthy food than I have. There is no fucking way a teacher in my school would make a comment like that 20 years ago. So, have some faith in the education system. Cause you haven't offered a different path (yet you blame Geoffrey for not offering solutions).

[525252]

hey I don't blame anyone for not offering solutions- as you say I haven't either. Its just stemming from an earlier post, insecurity and instability is the popular sentiment of our time so criticism without conclusion is natural. Its the cynicism that bothers me, and I admit I have been cynical about education (because it was directly affecting me at the time, and still is but I've come up with my own solution to that) In my experience it was appalling etc. and I'm talking more universities than primary schools but I do realise there is a necessity for institutional structures and I hope I'll develop some faith in that.

GBS' work is by no means something I would ever criticise, I'm even going to bother to explain why, there's enough justification of his work in this thread (I gotta leave soon so I'm not bothered to change the tone of that sentence, apologies, no bitterness is intended, and many thanks to Geoffrey for taking the time to write, sincerely) and I completely agree on that designers offer options not solutions. What I was trying to say with Gavagai's point is not that anyone is at fault of anything, but that there is a clear point that GBS' work is not accessible (in general terms now) because people aren't at a point where they can understand clothing as a permanent object in opposition to "fashion", and because of this it makes no sense to spend that much on clothes no matter how long they last. This is not a criticism, just an observation.

There are many offerings to be made towards change, these can be subtle creative decisions or less effective outright attempts to educate the people. To me an educational effort is futile (and maybe thats a dramatic word choice) because it is the lesser effective option. Everyone is aware that smoking is bad for you whether that came from school or warnings on the packaging, yet there are people who still choose to do it. I'm not trying to compare nicotine to clothes or food, but people aren't dogs who do as they're told.

I don't think I covered what I wanted to but I really gotta go, I'll come back and revise

[525252]

just wanted to take a quick note to again thank Geoffrey for his insight and very valuable contribution. It is all well appreciated!

[Faust]

hTo me an educational effort is futile (and maybe thats a dramatic word choice) because it is the lesser effective option. Everyone is aware that smoking is bad for you whether that came from school or warnings on the packaging, yet there are people who still choose to do it. I'm not trying to compare nicotine to clothes or food, but people aren't dogs who do as they're told.

I don't think I covered what I wanted to but I really gotta go, I'll come back and revise

Man, smoking is precisely the case you shouldn't be making. It is precisely through the educational effort (in schools and in the media) that the percentage of smokers has gone down immensely!