Rick Owens

[stemcell]

Hmm, I feel like that is a cop out. The point, maybe was to stir up a little self reflection— but I'm definitely talking about the majority of the group— the industry and customer base in full. To turn it around and say this only applies to me is fair gesture if it makes you uncomfortable— but it is in total denial of the points you KNOW I was making.

[stemcell]

And I think it is sad that you took "Me thinking it was silly" as the main purpose of that large paragraph. Of course I used the word silly, but it shouldn't take too much thought to understand the context of why I am calling it silly. I don't ACTUALLY think a conversation on quality or labor practices is SILLY in the literal sense— I was actually defending this conversation and saying how important it was to keep in this thread just a few posts back.

[unwashed]

That really doesn't justify what he and O+M are doing. You cannot say because it is less worse than event X or Y, than its ok. That's bullshit.

And he should care, not because he is a designer and head of a famous brand and business, no because he is a human being and needs to hold consideration for other human beings on this planet and the planet itself. Because he has more money or power doesn't give him a free pass for exploitation and pollution.

[stemcell]

That really doesn't justify what he and O+M are doing. You cannot say because it is less worse than event X or Y, than its ok. That's bullshit.

On one hand, definitely. On the other, I kinda hate how that always comes up... I hear that a lot. We love perspective and insight when it makes our issue big, but when it makes our issue small we suddenly hate that relativity. But you're still right, because if we did that all day we'd never get anywhere or fix anything.

And he should care, not because he is a designer and head of a famous brand and business, no because he is a human being and needs to hold consideration for other human beings on this planet and the planet itself. Because he has more money or power doesn't give him a free pass for exploitation and pollution.

Sure, I personally agree. But lots of people don't care. There are a lot of selfish people out there. Rick has joked many a time about being selfish. I'm not saying I condone his behavior, I am saying we may have collectively missed the dark underside of his projected persona. Like it's cute when he talks about how selfish he is in interviews, but then if we see selfish actions— it's now real, and it's now a problem. When, one could argue, he never really promised anything different.

[bukka]

All right. This is what irritated me:

There's no point in mentioning that far more terrible things are happening worldwide: first, because we are on a fashion forum and second because you are actually underestimating how global and terrible are the consequences of fast fashion nowadays. It's not only bigger brands and more depraved factories, the situation in Eastern Europe and Turkey is really fucked up (see GBS thread or here).
The general tone of your message was something like "don't get offended by the way Rick Owens treats Moldovian workers, you're already a piece of shit by buying a 5k$ jacket". Dude, is it really hard to understand that I want my 5k$ to support a new model of fashion business, sustainable with fair wages, rather than modern slavery?
Also, "quality is - not - number one concern". It's one of the many concerns. If you want quality, you can have a 10$ potato shirt and some indestructible 100$ hiking boot.
Being "realistic", in your message, only means being lazy.

Sure, I personally agree. But lots of people don't care. There are a lot of selfish people out there. Rick has joked many a time about being selfish. I'm not saying I condone his behavior, I am saying we may have collectively missed the dark underside of his projected persona. Like it's cute when he talks about how selfish he is in interviews, but then if we see selfish actions— it's now real, and it's now a problem. When, one could argue, he never really promised anything different.

Well, with this I can agree. I definitely thought Rick was more concerned with ethics. Made in Moldova was kind of a shock first time I saw it.

[stemcell]

Ok. I think that is a much fairer response. I did try to preface the post with "SO JUST A THOUGHT." In all caps to prepare for the sort of throwaway drama of the paragraph. It really was, more or less, just a thought. I still think our concepts of luxury are fairly damaging, it's painful to admit— Don't forget, I'm on this forum too, and I was at the Rick store just 3 days ago. And I do think the consequences of fast fashion are hugely important. And the conditions in eastern Europe are important as well. Even in that context though, we are as far as I know, talking about the construction of only a small portion of the line, just the staple leathers. So I don't think anyone is a piece of shit. I guess if my view could be distilled it is just that... if you're attracted to something with punk and nihilistic undertones, dark and evil undertones— sometimes unfortunately that's going to come with those actual traits. I was kind of amusing the thought that what we had here was a very ugly and uncomfortable example of that.

And when I said quality is the number 1 concern, I simply meant that no one buys a high quality product with the intention of its seams splitting. This is a product driven situation, there for the product has to be number 1— in the literal sense— where as other considerations are kind of literally secondary— they literally require secondary questions. You can't open up your package, put on your leather jacket and have a light suddenly go off in your head "Oh this is moldovan slave labor" — finding that out requires a secondary inquiry, usually by a third party, an article or report over the internet. Quality is a characteristic of primary experience. Sorry if that isn't making sense. I suppose there are some people out there who start from the back, with droves of research before ever purchasing or trying on a garment, but I assume that is a tiny minority.

[Arkady]

ITT: People arguing about the ethics of producing $45,000 mink vests when nearly every other thing they consume is produced in similar or worse conditions. Literally everything -- like, literally man -- has nihilistic undertones if we expand this discussion out to the world beyond obelisk daybeds and subversive flip flops. How many of you typed your responses out on a macbook?

Not that the discussion is without merit but it's also h i l a r i o u s.

[Shucks]

shots fired

[Shucks]

Ok. I think that is a much fairer response. I did try to preface the post with "SO JUST A THOUGHT." In all caps to prepare for the sort of throwaway drama of the paragraph. It really was, more or less, just a thought. I still think our concepts of luxury are fairly damaging, it's painful to admit— Don't forget, I'm on this forum too, and I was at the Rick store just 3 days ago. And I do think the consequences of fast fashion are hugely important. And the conditions in eastern Europe are important as well. Even in that context though, we are as far as I know, talking about the construction of only a small portion of the line, just the staple leathers. So I don't think anyone is a piece of shit. I guess if my view could be distilled it is just that... if you're attracted to something with punk and nihilistic undertones, dark and evil undertones— sometimes unfortunately that's going to come with those actual traits. I was kind of amusing the thought that what we had here was a very ugly and uncomfortable example of that.

And when I said quality is the number 1 concern, I simply meant that no one buys a high quality product with the intention of its seams splitting. This is a product driven situation, there for the product has to be number 1— in the literal sense— where as other considerations are kind of literally secondary— they literally require secondary questions. You can't open up your package, put on your leather jacket and have a light suddenly go off in your head "Oh this is moldovan slave labor" — finding that out requires a secondary inquiry, usually by a third party, an article or report over the internet. Quality is a characteristic of primary experience. Sorry if that isn't making sense. I suppose there are some people out there who start from the back, with droves of research before ever purchasing or trying on a garment, but I assume that is a tiny minority.

no it isn't. it's totally influenced by marketing and all kind of superordinate and subordinate images.

and yes, some ppl buy rick fully aware that it will rip and tear right off the bat. it used to be part of the 'look' rick customers were going for. now it's all fuccbois wanting everything box fresh.

btw. punk has nothing to do with endorsing evil. quite the opposite.

[Arkady]

Nothing to spar about but it's impossible to read a bunch of wealthy consumers considering they're part of the dislocation of production and consumption debating the ethics of useless shit people die to produce for them and not smile. Especially when it's flavored with them suggesting the phenominal quality of their luxury goods is what makes them luxury. Saying that there's altruistic intent behind buying a $5,000 jacket and hoping it isn't sustained with modern slavery is equally good.

Then the nationalized generalizations -- I assure you there are plenty of facilities in Italy with equally brutal working conditions to Moldova. Was the fabric used in the Italian pieces sustainably produced? What about the mass produced zippers? The rubber in the boots? The furs? Guys, what?

_____

While Ricky Ozay says a lot of things, this one's a keeper: “I did this talk for a fashion school, it was a Skype talk and one of the students asked me, Mr Owens, what do you do about sustainability? And I go, I’m the opposite of sustainability. It’s all about selling more and more clothes that nobody needs. Polluting more rivers with my black dye. Poisoning the planet,” he laughs.

[stemcell]

and yes, some ppl buy rick fully aware that it will rip and tear right off the bat. it used to be part of the 'look' rick customers were going for.

btw. punk has nothing to do with endorsing evil. quite the opposite.

That's not the kind of wear and distress I was talking about. C'moonnnn I know that's part of the fun the brand— the above discussion about the quality of drkshdw wasn't really the same thing. And again, in regards to punk— I really want to think you know the point I am making. I'm not saying that everything I've said is 100% correct or whatever but please don't purposely misunderstand :(

[stemcell]

I'm pretty sure Arkady gets it, and seems to be putting it in a more straightforward and simple way than I am so I'm gonna try to not linger on this anymore. I've derailed it enough, I think most of us can basically agree, Rick is kinda cool, slave labor sucks.

In other news, I tried on the 10k peacoat from sphinx. Was incredibly stiff and uncomfortable and felt really quite cheap. If it had been 2 or 3k, I might not have thought much of it. But was kind of insane. The sales person at the store even mentioned their own confusion about it. I also saw one of the much lower priced peacoats, and it was quite lovely. Not sure what that was all about.

[scanner]

I can maybe understand some sort of modern slave like assembly line for mass manufactured t-shirts, drkshdw stuff etc., but not on the shoes and jackets.

Even luxury brands like Dior and Saint Laurent have ateliers where they produce and finish jackets by hand and I was always under the impression that most made in Italy sneakers and shoes were still being produced traditionally.

In any case, If i'm buying a $5k jacket, it's not unreasonable to assume or hope that the jacket is being produced with more care and hand finishing like many other luxury brands are known to do, rather than just throw it onto the assembly line. I'm sure Rick produces a lot of jackets, but so many that he need's to outsource and set up an assembly line? That seems strange to me.

[Arkady]

Well -- it's about $130 million in revenue a year right now, he's not Geppetto sitting in the basement of Lab.oratory sewing the things himself.

[bukka]

Then the nationalized generalizations -- I assure you there are plenty of facilities in Italy with equally brutal working conditions to Moldova. Was the fabric used in the Italian pieces sustainably produced? What about the mass produced zippers? The rubber in the boots? The furs? Guys, what?

Of course, the main problem is traceability, I'm fine with buying something that's made in Moldova and actually improves the life of Moldovian workers. I don't think it's the case for RO unfortunately.
Your RO quote was already quoted 10 posts above.

ITT: People arguing about the ethics of producing $45,000 mink vests when nearly every other thing they consume is produced in similar or worse conditions. Literally everything -- like, literally man -- has nihilistic undertones if we expand this discussion out to the world beyond obelisk daybeds and subversive flip flops. How many of you typed your responses out on a macbook?

Not that the discussion is without merit but it's also h i l a r i o u s.

I mean, what's the point of your post? Trying to show how cool your cynicism is? Why would you waste your time posting here if you don't feel concerned about production ethics? Just keep reading and laugh for yourself no?