Thom Browne

[Faust]

Re: Thom Browne

[quote user="nqth"]

Whydo you guys hate this guy so much? He is doing sth different, sth not very "correct" and "serious" in American menswear, and receives a lot of press supports. It's very American way of doing bussiness, the "big", "new", "very american" in the press, no? If he worked in Europe, nobody would probably has noticed him.

Is it good now for him, to receive such attentions? Yes. What when the press darlings will be gone? Who cares. If he is good enough, he will make it. Maybe in his niche market, maybe he will break it into sth bigger. Let's him enjoy his moment:-)

It's very difficult to turn sth wierd and bad taste into "it" thing. He clearly made it.

[/quote]

You answered your own question :-). But, yea, I agree with Laika - hate is a bit of a strong word to use...

[soultek]

Re: Thom Browne



I tend to like TB more than dislike. But then again, I might be more of a conservative dresser than most here on SZ (like Servo). I too wonder at the guile Thom seems to generate in people, however Iagree with Laika that it is cool that he generates such great discussions on this as well as other boards.

A few thoughts after reading the posts:

Chinorlz mentioned Kiton & Brioni as old men clothes. I agree that they are, but what elseare old men to wear? Are you guys going to be rocking CCP when you're over the hill? It would be great if I could afford a Kiton suit to wear to my future daughter's graduation. I really believe in the fashion adage of "dressing your age".

That being said, I do not think that Thom Browne and this new crop of menswear labels such as Michael Bastian, Timothy Hamilton,and even Band of Outsiders are in competition with Kiton. I think they fufill an in-between niche between more youthful labels (like many of the ones mentioned on this board)and 'old man' tradlabels such as BB, Kiton, and the like.I think TB offers something for a man in between these styles (and ages). If I were 10-15 years older, I'd probably gravitate to these labels more than I do now.

Seventh, very well said. I have to agree that his imagery has a very disturbing feel to it.I don't know what the point of it all is.I feel TB is at his best withhis co-opting of acertain look of the 1950's (very apparent uponvisiting his NYC store).This is best exemplified through the picture of the man himself posted earlier. I believe he has presented a modern take on this look and thereby it has become the TB look of today. And, yes, I think it can exist independant of short sleeves and cuffs. But, no, I do not think it should justify a whole fashion label with runway shows and such since there's really no where to go artistically.

So, while I very much understand and even agree with the criticism, the pragmatic, aging, conservative dresserin me is looking forward to the Ron Herman sale where I might pick up a TB button up for 50% off.

[Casius]

Re: Thom Browne

The thing about Thom's clothing for me, is that it evokes no emotion and it's whole aesthetic just seems to 'easy' to me. His clothing is impeccably made, no question, but it just doesn't seem like anything new other than the hem lengths which I don't appreciate anyway. But with that in mind, I would gladly wear a Thom Browne suit the way I would want to wear it because of the fantastic quality. This to me, is what fashion is all about, taking/buying what you want and turning it into something that is inherently 'you'.

We are all trying to make comparisons, like Thom to CCP, and the like, but it doesn't add up, they are not on the same playing field. I could work Thom Browne trousers with a CCP shirt and jacket no problem, but a whole Thom look just isn't for me. I whole heartedly agree with Faust that this is a trend, and something that is very wrong not only with Thom's line but with American fashion as a whole. We are too materialistic with what's hot right now and what the new trend is and most don't pay enough attention to what a company stands for, the design, and what the clothing says.

The one thing I can appreciate from Thom is that he is bringing back a time where Men dressed up not because they needed to but because they wanted to. It seems as though a lot of Americans just become lazy when it comes to dressing themselves, but maybe Thom's new line (especially black fleece) will envoke a sense of business-fashion that people will be able to associate themselves with instead of being the 'metro-sexual' of the office or the like.

I just read that a lot of former BB clients who would usually come in and buy 20 dress shirts were pre-ordering whole looks from the Black Fleece line and I think that says something in itself...

[Faust]

Re: Thom Browne



I think Tom (what's his real name, anyway?) generates a lot of discussion because some of us are having an Emperor's New Clothes moment. If he wasn't so hyped by Anna Wintour and others, there wouldn't be a discussion. We don't shout about Spencer Hart, right? And Spencer Hart is better made than TB. We don't shout about Adam Kimmel either, and he's doing a similar thing, we just don't see it crammed down our throat by 30 page ads in Vogue and other media.

P.S. Welcome back, Seventh [<:o)]

[mass]

Re: Thom Browne

why can't thom browne be his birth name though? unless you guys know something i don't (which seems to be the case here).

[Servo2000]

Re: Thom Browne

[quote user="Faust"]

I think Tom (what's his real name, anyway?) generates a lot of discussion because some of us are having an Emperor's New Clothes moment. If he wasn't so hyped by Anna Wintour and others, there wouldn't be a discussion. We don't shout about Spencer Hart, right? And Spencer Hart is better made than TB. We don't shout about Adam Kimmel either, and he's doing a similar thing, we just don't see it crammed down our throat by 30 page ads in Vogue and other media.

P.S. Welcome back, Seventh [<:o)]

[/quote]

I think for me, I never had any delusions that what he had was some sort of "Revolution," or even really considered him a great designer. In fact, I really hated him in the beginning, as I've said before. I think that Casius captured what interests me is that he's trying to bring about a return to what's considered a very European notion of "dressing well for the sake of dressing well and because you want to dress well," but what interests me is that he's trying to do with it by re-interpreting a very outdated, thoroughly staid vision of Americana. I don't lay it all at his feet, either. And, personally, I think to a certain extent in his designs and to a certain extent in his influence he's accomplished that. There are other designers doing a similiar thing, as you mentioned, and I categorically place him alongside them, but for whatever reason I think he's pulled just a little ahead of the pack.

Not far enough ahead of the pack for him to really need a 30 page vogue add, certainly, but enough to still recieve a certain degree of attention.

[Faust]

Re: Thom Browne



[quote user="mass"]why can't thom browne be his birth name though? unless you guys know something i don't (which seems to be the case here).[/quote]

It isn't. His name is John Smith or something prosaic like that - he used to work for J.Crew and then left to do this and made up the name. I don't remember where I read it.

[Seventh]

Re: Thom Browne

Thanks Faust :) -- it is
very nice to be back.

I think your right-on
about the whole British public school vibe of the video, kinda terrifying.

If Thom wants to bring
back some of the style of the 40s and 50s, he is doing it in a terrifically
bland and sorta monolithic fascist way. When I think about that era (esp in
American films), I think of the strange characters and hypnotic personalities, Bogart,
early Brando, Orson Wells, characters whose clothes fitted them (not the other
way around). Part of what makes me react so strongly to Browne's vision is that
the personalities of his models (and how he presents the clothing in general)
is so empty.

For all I dislike about
the recent CDG collection, at least Rei is putting clothes on non-models,
people who have their own idiosyncrasies, and the clothing fits in many ways
who they are. I feel like Browne's work doesn't have that flexibility, to wear
it properly, you have to be another adolescent clone.

And I think that this
way of thinking goes beyond Thom to other clothing designers, which is perhaps
why I feel so strongly about it and am making a fuss about a "flash in the
pan" designer. More and more, I am tired of clothes that function on
purely aesthetic grounds (to look pretty or elegant). I want more from them--I
want to see designs with guts (my word) and emotion (something that Casius
mentioned)--and clothing that has some vital relevance in my daily life.

[Casius]

Re: Thom Browne

Oh, I forgot to mention...Thom looks horrible in that suit Laika posted. It makes him look paunchy, 20lbs over weight in the belly, and he probably has to move around like a robot. Not too practical.

As funny as it sounds, I can't help but think what a nice young lady would think if I went out looking like that? :)

I mean, what good is clothing if it doesn't complement the human body?

[soultek]

Re: Thom Browne

[quote user="Casius"]The thing about Thom's clothing for me, is that it evokes no emotion and it's whole aesthetic just seems to 'easy' to me. His clothing is impeccably made, no question, but it just doesn't seem like anything new other than the hem lengths which I don't appreciate anyway. But with that in mind, I would gladly wear a Thom Browne suit the way I would want to wear it because of the fantastic quality. This to me, is what fashion is all about, taking/buying what you want and turning it into something that is inherently 'you'.

We are all trying to make comparisons, like Thom to CCP, and the like, but it doesn't add up, they are not on the same playing field. I could work Thom Browne trousers with a CCP shirt and jacket no problem, but a whole Thom look just isn't for me. I whole heartedly agree with Faust that this is a trend, and something that is very wrong not only with Thom's line but with American fashion as a whole. We are too materialistic with what's hot right now and what the new trend is and most don't pay enough attention to what a company stands for, the design, and what the clothing says.

The one thing I can appreciate from Thom is that he is bringing back a time where Men dressed up not because they needed to but because they wanted to. It seems as though a lot of Americans just become lazy when it comes to dressing themselves, but maybe Thom's new line (especially black fleece) will envoke a sense of business-fashion that people will be able to associate themselves with instead of being the 'metro-sexual' of the office or the like.

I just read that a lot of former BB clients who would usually come in and buy 20 dress shirts were pre-ordering whole looks from the Black Fleece line and I think that says something in itself...

[/quote]

Casius, I agree with what you've said here. One of the things about BB clients are that some or many of them are corporate clients. There are a lot of law and financial firms that have corporate deals with BB because they want their associates dressed a certain way. It will be interesting to see how Black Fleece plays into or doesn't play into this whole arrangement.

[Casius]

Re: Thom Browne

[quote user="soultek"][quote user="Casius"]The thing about Thom's clothing for me, is that it evokes no emotion and it's whole aesthetic just seems to 'easy' to me. His clothing is impeccably made, no question, but it just doesn't seem like anything new other than the hem lengths which I don't appreciate anyway. But with that in mind, I would gladly wear a Thom Browne suit the way I would want to wear it because of the fantastic quality. This to me, is what fashion is all about, taking/buying what you want and turning it into something that is inherently 'you'.

We are all trying to make comparisons, like Thom to CCP, and the like, but it doesn't add up, they are not on the same playing field. I could work Thom Browne trousers with a CCP shirt and jacket no problem, but a whole Thom look just isn't for me. I whole heartedly agree with Faust that this is a trend, and something that is very wrong not only with Thom's line but with American fashion as a whole. We are too materialistic with what's hot right now and what the new trend is and most don't pay enough attention to what a company stands for, the design, and what the clothing says.

The one thing I can appreciate from Thom is that he is bringing back a time where Men dressed up not because they needed to but because they wanted to. It seems as though a lot of Americans just become lazy when it comes to dressing themselves, but maybe Thom's new line (especially black fleece) will envoke a sense of business-fashion that people will be able to associate themselves with instead of being the 'metro-sexual' of the office or the like.

I just read that a lot of former BB clients who would usually come in and buy 20 dress shirts were pre-ordering whole looks from the Black Fleece line and I think that says something in itself...

[/quote]

Casius, I agree with what you've said here. One of the things about BB clients are that some or many of them are corporate clients. There are a lot of law and financial firms that have corporate deals with BB because they want their associates dressed a certain way. It will be interesting to see how Black Fleece plays into or doesn't play into this whole arrangement.

[/quote]

Here's the article on Black Fleece for everyone, from fashionweekdaily.com

(NEW YORK)[/b] "After all of the work we put into the collection it is very exciting to finally see people wearing the clothes." That was Thom Browne's conclusion following a three-day trunk show at the Brooks Brothers Madison Avenue store previewing his men's and women's designs for Black Fleece. The avant-garde designer, also the 2006 Council of Fashion Designers of America award winner for menswear designer of the year, hosted the affair alongside Brooks Brothers's chief merchandising officer Lou Amendola, taking private appointments with both current and-more importantly-new customers.

Amendola, who was chiefly responsible for spearheading the massive undertaking with Browne, sat down The Daily[/i]following the trunk show and said that both he and Browne were pleased with the results. "We had no sales plan for the three days and we've had a significant amount of pre-sale," Amendola said. In men's, suiting, in particular the flannel, herringbone, and Donegal wool tweed versions-priced from $2,700 to $2,900 at about a 30 to 40 percent markup from the normal Brooks Brothers collections-sold the best, followed by the cotton shirts and ties, both of which retail across the board for $150. In women's, whose inventory is less than that of men's, Amendola reported that separates, skirts (cut conservatively below the knee), as well as a longer cashmere jacket, were among the best sellers. Among the key items were a tweed dress for $1,000; skirts ranging from $1,200 for flannel to $1,800 for silk, and a cashmere coat with silver buttons for $2,900.

"Sometimes people shop and then they purchase, but with this, when the customer saw it and knew, they took it immediately because it may not be here," Amendola observed. Indeed, in a tour of the company's showroom where the entire collection is currently housed-dedicated in-store vignettes will come by mid-September-a respectable amount of designs available for immediate purchase had been snapped up. "On the normal sales floor, we have guys who normally buy 12 shirts at a time," Amendola offered as a comparison. "With Black Fleece, that same guy has come and, this time, bought a look head to toe."

Indeed, Amendola said a cross section of existing Brooks Brothers customers attended the trunk show and were pleased that the looks weren't the same "shrunken" versions the slender 5-foot-10 designer has shown on his own runway since he started his business in 2001. On the other hand, for the loyal Thom Browne customer, Amendola noted that it appeared the designs hadn't been "extreme enough, but in a good way."

"It's not a Thom Browne jacket," Amendola emphasized. "It's Thom's take on a Brooks Brothers jacket." The Black Fleece collection is sized zero to five, whereas the brand's standard collections are offered in 45 sizes in a dizzying variety of widths and lengths. "The only items I was nervous about were the embroidered fleece pieces," he admitted.

Looking through the gray suits, cropped jackets, and elegant evening gowns, one easily forgets that none of the garments bear the "Thom Browne for Brooks Brothers" moniker. According to a spokesman for the company, which entered into a two-year contract with Browne, this allows Brooks Brothers to potentially expand or continue the line should there be a change in the design helm-essentially freeing the 189-year old haberdashery brand from being pigeonholed à la Tom Ford for Gucci.

The spokesman also reconfirmed that Brooks Brothers is not involved in Browne's own fashion show, scheduled to take place the afternoon of Sept. 6.

"Designers can be emotional divas, but we model ourselves as being a place where ladies and gentlemen shop, and Thom was a gentleman," said Amendola. The biggest surprise with Browne, according to Amendola, was his professional attention to detail. "He understands the business and would say to me, 'I want Brooks Brothers to [be able to] sell [this]!"

No specific numbers or sales figures were released by Brooks Brothers, partly due to the fact that sales figures weren't immediately available following the trunk shows. But Amendola did offer a comparison, saying, "It's been very interesting-the sales figures you look at and go, 'wow, that's what one of our branch stores did in one day,' or 'it exceeded one entire department's goal! It's truly an emotional high because you've been working on it for so long.'"

To celebrate the launch, Brooks Brothers, along with Vogue[/i]and Men's Vogue[/i], will host a party on Sept. 11 at the retailer's Fifth Avenue flagship store. Claire Bernard, Amanda Hearst, Arden Wohl, Fabiola Beracasa, and Tinsley Mortimer will serve as committee chairs, and the evening will benefit the American Museum of Natural History. As part of the multi-million dollar launch, Browne will also make personal appearances at select Brooks Brothers in the U.S., as well as at its European flagships in Paris, London, and Milan.

The biggest surprise with Thom, on a professional detail: 1 understand the business. "I want Brooks Brothers to sell!" he would say, and it was refreshing. Personal: he's been an absolute gentleman to work with.

Amendola's first pick from the collection, surprisingly enough, was not a suit, tuxedo, or even acrisp white shirt. "The first thing I made sure I had for myself was the briefcase," he mused, motioning at a gorgeous $3,500 handmade black calfskin leather briefcase with sterling silver hardware. "Second for me, based on my build, was the suit; but they did have to do a lot of alterations on it for me."
JIM SHI

Now the funny thing about this article is that they only have signed on Thom for a 2 year stint to see how it goes. I can't help but think BB might see Thom as a one trick pony and not a designer that is going to be around for a while. Obviously, time is going to tell how the Black Fleece line does, but I could see BB moving to another designer once Thom's own celebrity runs dry.

[laika]

Re: Thom Browne

[quote user="Seventh"]

I have been away for
while (out west and away from computers), so I am just starting to catch up
with the discussions going on, so forgive me if this has been raised before...

It is an interesting
discussion, and it definitely seems like it raises some strong opinions. What I
am most interested by Thom Browne, is the cultural aesthetic that he is after.
I'll admit that I am not a fan, but it seems to go further than that.

The video that Laika
posted really bothered me and I took me a while to figure out why. I think it
was, overproduced, immaculate/pretentious, mildly culturally racist
(all white cast), engaged in a shorthand symbolic references to
"authentic" spiritual experiences (the baptism, wtf?) , safe and homogenous
(it only looks good on thin, boring-looking, young men), and trying to present
a look and feeling of false naivety and innocence. I know that is a lot to say
for a silly fashion video... :)

But I am sick of perfectly
coiffed, white, pretty and empty men, trying to look like serious innocent
men/children from an imagined (far more nobler) past, and clothing that encourages
this mentality. Do other people on the SZ have an opinion on how clothing fits
the zeitgeist of the contemporary times (no pun intended)? For me, I am
bothered that so much youth culture and design seems to be interested in the
fantasy of innocence and naivety, especially at this contemporary moment (a war
in Iraq, huge political corruption, split between rich and poor is getting more
extreme). Shouldn't clothing have an active language, what I loved about CDG
(back in the day) was that it seemed active--that deconstruction was so much
part of our experience and life in the 90s. Browne's work seems an escape from
an realities into a dream world that only certain people are permitted to
self-select into.

[/quote]

I think you and Faust might be missing the point here; or perhaps just overly conflating Anthony's vision with Thom's. Goicolea's work is supposed be disturbing--to show the dark, menacing underbelly of adolescence and of dreams. The "fantasy of innocence and naivety" that you refer to is constantly being undermined by intimations of violence--the sheep shearing, the dead octopus, the boy being nailed into a coffin by his peers. The uniformity of the boys, I think, just contributes to this mood of looming danger; and also underscores the dark homoeroticism that is always part of Goicolea's aesthetic. TB's clothes--which are simultaneously fascistic and androgynous, cruel and adolescent--work perfectly in this narrative. There is no innocence, that is the whole point.

Now, how exactly is this pretentious, please? [^o)]

I am really interested in the last part of your post, re: clothes and zeitgeist--will think about that and respond later on.

(And, welcome back, you were very sorely missed![51] )

[Fuuma]

Re: Thom Browne

I haven't watched the vid yet but, to be consistant with his own work, shouldn't all character be played by Goicolea, in other word, is the white/thin/male uniformity just a case of all the characters being a single, conflicted entity suffering from a bad case of ubiquity?

[macuser3of5]

Re: Thom Browne



They signed him for 2 years because Black Fleece is a guest designer lab, so it's meant to be a revolving door. They started with Thom probably because he's the most obvious choice; a springboard. I wonder if down the line we'll see Black Fleece by Raf Simons? :p

And I feel his clothes provide plenty of emotion and character, it's just not overt. I don't feel clothing necessarily has to mirror the zeitgeist of the times (referring to political climate, culture), either. Art can do two things: embrace or reject. Thom is the latter, and to an extreme extent. If one stands in contrast to his peers or the mindset of one's culture, is it any less valuable? This is no less a trend than arte povera (count how many of these labels have popped up in recent years, some work, some don't*). It's just too strange to be embraced fully as a trend, it's a perversion of the most stable form in menswear. On some level, it's serious and elegant, but ultimately, it's meant to be fun, and a bit playful. I enjoy it.

I just wish I could afford it. Though, plainly, this wish extends to 99.9% of the brands discussed here anyway. :p

*I'll say LUC is easily my favorite out of all of them.

[Casius]

Re: Thom Browne

Thom's clothing, itself, isn't a trend, it's the way it's worn that is the trend (if that makes sense). Thom's clothing without the raised hemlines is just another well made, business casual clothing line. But with the arte povera lines, it is very much an aesthetic more so than a trend. But this may be a whole other topic in itself; What we all consider a trend?