Designer Greatness and Generational Debate

[ronin]

I understood your point, thanks for clarifying - actually I was more challenging my opinion based on your example (taken out of its context) than trying to prove you wrong. I did not mean to undermine Ann's influence on designers, rather to think of indirect influence on more popular designers. Like, say, in painting, a movement can have influenced further ones even though they have no visible links, because it changed the global picture and thus changed the way painters thought of their art. Maybe this is what I perceive as greatness after all, a step in History.

Still, you're right, just because a designer's influence is less widespread doesn't mean it is less important. I have a hard time separating the radius of the influence from its conceptual impact, even though they are not linked. I guess there could be a two-dimensional chart of those parameters. I believe you can determine the inspirational value, hence the impact, of a potential source of inspiration when it actually inspires someone, if it is too local, too narrow, then it is not that valuable as an influence - which doesn't mean it is not valuable in other ways. I don't think that a massive influence which is weak at the core, which doesn't bring enough novelty in design or philosophy, can be considered a major influence either. But I'm off topic here, after all greatness can't be defined by influence only.

[pierce]

"But, yes, of course her work is not popular enough to become like Chanel and thank god for that."

I'm not sure about that. Amazing with time how things can change.

I think most of the big multinational fashion house's have destroyed their brand. Just look at whose expanding, Rick Owens, Martin Margiela...the future is going to look alot different than what we are used to, that is guaranteed.

[Faust]

I know what you are saying, pierce, but I don't have such a negative view. There will always be new, hungry, dissatisfied designers who will try to go their own way. And when they become the establishment, new ones will take their place.

[pierce]

Definitely interesting times.

I think that the fashion industry in the past was controlled to a certain extent by a few magazines, celebrities etc and dependent on a mass market. You had fashion house floated on the stock exchange etc. But this market is now dead as the general public hasn't got the money to spend, the control of the media is gone due to blogs and forums where people make up their own minds. It will be hard for these big houses to retrench or adapt to these new models. The people with money have moved on and are look at different things now. This forum is a good example, what big fashion house wouldn't want people queuing up to buy $2000 leather jackets, its unheard of anywhere else at the moment. Martin Margiela's success is a good example, a company that totally shuns business and marketing expanding like no tomorrow.
I think the word for the zeitgeist is authenticity, if your brand stands for something authentic other than making money then you will do well in the current climate.

I'd go so far as to say we are in the midst of a cultural revolution, where anything is possible. A good example of this is in the UK a facebook campaign was launched by an ordinary couple for people to buy RATM's Killing in the name of and knock the x factor winner off the top of the charts. This seems to have worked. Imagine, a guy in a house in the middle of nowhere can stop the x factor winner reaching number 1 in the charts. Thats pretty amazing and I think small designers can do the same thing to the big houses if they play their cards right.

[laughed]

I know there was a few questions but to keep it simple, my one great designer would be Margiela.
What makes him great to me is he really was innovative and it was an innovative that influenced many other designers...not just an innovative that is hidden. He is obviously starting to hit the mainstream now with all that diesel stuff and the stores popping up and Kanye wearing him but whatever. He will always be the one that first showed me that fashion could be art. Yeah, I love Rick, both are great, but come on. No one even knows what the man looks like. It's genius. It's greatness.
Each year he found new ways to not only make clothing interesting but new ways to present them.
I am very tired, I wish I could put more effort into the post, but for the past two days I have been contemplating getting a Margiela tattoo. Make fun of me later! To explain, I have known and loved margiela for almost 15 years. The moment that I saw the label I thought- I LOVE THIS MAN, THIS COMPANY, WHATEVER IT IS I LOVE IT!

[pierce]

Agree 100% about Margiela. I don't need to repeat anything, anyone who is a fan of his work understands what he was up to.

One observation, I bought the book there last week. I also see that Colette are selling a special swarovski crystal covered edition. Seems now that he has left and they are free to do what they want they are going to rape it to the end. Like making a gold leaf bible. So contradictor to whats written on the pages its silly.

If anything it makes a great story or mirror to the way humans work, of how a truely genuine and authentic designer can have his ideals trampeled on for profit. Renzo Rosso will reissue all the old designs mass produced. Thats as clear as day.

There is also a great lesson in business to be learned, if you look at a brand like apple and I guess the same for masion martin margiela, where you have a strong leader, however reluctant, you have a very consistent brand and idea running through everything. Swarovski crystals is a perfect example of what happens when the main controller leaves, you end up with glaring inconsistencies in the companies output. I picture some body in renzo rosso's camp sitting down and saying "Swarovski crystals, that seems to be cool and we'll put them in colette" and then no one there to haul them in. Doubt they even read the book. So so bad.

[galia]

the photo doesn't really show it but it's quite bad

[pierce]

I'll have to dig out the quote now from the book where he mentions ostentatious materials. Really shows that who ever came up with this special edition didn't read the book.

[genevieveryoko]

I think most of the big multinational fashion house's have destroyed their brand. Just look at whose expanding, Rick Owens, Martin Margiela...the future is going to look alot different than what we are used to, that is guaranteed.

I think this is subjective, whether or not the brand has been destroyed. I've always held the viewpoint that however big you want your business to be is your personal business, and probably reflects your personality on some level. You can stay small like Dries or go big like Margiela, as long as you don't exploit anyone and make a consistently good product it doesn't bother me. But I'm not saying that Margiela makes a consistently good product. And if all you're after is profit then, obviously, you suck.

[pierce]

Agree that there is nothing wrong with growing a business. At the end of the day its only fashion. But I do think that fashion, music, football etc are things that people really tie into their personnal identity, so they always have opinions on what happens to their favorite band, team or label.

The problem with what is happening at maison martin margiela is that the man has left. Now we see a directionless company. There is nothing interesting in charging $800 for a book with fake diamonds on the cover. What is the point. The text is the same on the inside, the only reason is for lowest common denominator stuff. This or the perfum line, lamp shades etc are all bullshit just to increase profit. The only problem is that the world has changed and Renzo Rosso doesn't have the foresite as a ceo to understand this. He's just applying a failed business model to the company as it worked for other companies in the past. We all know where that heads.

[genevieveryoko]

The problem with what is happening at maison martin margiela is that the man has left. Now we see a directionless company. There is nothing interesting in charging $800 for a book with fake diamonds on the cover. What is the point. The text is the same on the inside, the only reason is for lowest common denominator stuff. This or the perfum line, lamp shades etc are all bullshit just to increase profit. The only problem is that the world has changed and Renzo Rosso doesn't have the foresite as a ceo to understand this. He's just applying a failed business model to the company as it worked for other companies in the past. We all know where that heads.

I wonder why he would do this?
The name Margiela isn't doing it for me anymore anyway, if I can't identify with the runway show when I'm sober, I want nothing to do with it.

[Faust]

Actually, pierce, can you elaborate on what you think is a failed business model?

[laughed]

What's interesting to me is all this talk about how Margiela left...when really, there was no Margiela to begin with. Sure, there are things like in the A Magazine where people who worked for Martin would talk about first meeting him, and stories about how he had a beard in college, etc...but in interviews it was always Margiela the brand. So really, when Renzo takes over- the brand, the people are gone. So Margiela quote unquote leaves. What now? Margiela, this ghost, creating a new company? Could you imagine if there really is a man named Martin Margiela and he takes over some huge fashion house like Chanel lol? just throwing names out there, but the possibilities are really endless and I think even imagining what HE, if there is a he, does next is crazy.
I wonder how much respect he has in the fashion world compared to someone like a Galliano or Lagerfeld. I think the obvious answer is that he isn't, to say, on their level, not to say that I love either, style different, etc. but in my mind, Margiela at this point could possibly one of the most powerful men in fashion. He's a free agent.

[pierce]

Actually, pierce, can you elaborate on what you think is a failed business model?

"I wonder why he would do this?"

I think because it is the only thing he knows. Renzo Rosso is a business man, the way he measures success is through growth in profits. I'd say he looked at all the business in his portfolio and saw Margiela as one ripe for growth. Its like holding a steak in front of a hungry dog. Its the only thing he knows how to do. There is nothing wrong with this, but the problem I have is that he is now applying every hackneyed cliche how to exploit a brand trick in the book. Perfume, design hotel, home line...I wouldn't put it past him to come out with a Martin Margiela white paint, at $150 a can.

So why is this a failed model? This is only my opinion, but I think that the world has changed and old models don't work. If a model doesn't work then it is failed. What has changed? The internet is one thing that makes things different. Also the economic crash. If we look at the old brands, Gucci, Armani, Prada etc, they are destroyed. All you have to do is walk down any street market and you see fake versions on sale, being worn by people nobody wants to be. No one on here would touch these old brands. Even hip-hop artist have abandoned the logo for Rick Owens and Martin Margiela. So you got to ask the question why renzo rosso is applying this model to a label that was growing purely by avoiding this model. I'm sure this is what people are doing inside Margiela?

Even Obama knows that the time has changed " Many of you have been taught to chase after the usual brass rings: being on this "who's who" list or that top 100 list; how much money you make and how big your corner office is; whether you have a fancy enough title or a nice enough car.

You can take that road - and it may work for some of you. But at this difficult time, let me suggest that such an approach won't get you where you want to go; that in fact, the elevation of appearance over substance, celebrity over character, short-term gain over lasting achievement is precisely what your generation needs to help end."

Finally, I agree that Margiela is now the most powerful man in fashion.
His label was always known for "Humor", I'd call it taking the piss out of the rest of the industry, but in a subtle subversive way. He was like the child who pointed at the king in the emperors new clothes. If he stayed on while renzo rosso does what he plans to do, then he would be useless and irrelevant. But by walking away he has become the ultimate maverick. Imagine, walking away from the potential to make money at the cost to your integrity, I love it and respect him so much for doing so. Even if we never hear from him again, the legacy and what he did will be held up for years to come as an inspiration to young designers.

[Faust]

Pierce, I knew exactly what you would say, so my post was a provocation (in a good way, to spur discussion). If you were to ask me as early as 3-4 years ago, I would say the exact same thing. Now, I am not so sure. As a matter of fact, I think they have won and we have lost. This business model DOES work, for several reasons, and the financial statements of PPR and LVMH are there to prove it, and those of Armani and Prada too, if they would publish them. Just to give you a quick idea - Margiela revenue for last year, 70 million euro (don't know the profits, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are 10 million at best), Gucci 2,500 million (500 million profit).

Now, the reasons:

1) Wealth increase. There is no denying that the Western civilized world and its capitalist Asian counterparts have gotten richer in the past 20-30 years. People are now willing to pay premium prices for shit. There has been a cultural shift - we live in a culture of entitlement, and not all of it has been underwritten by easy credit.

2) Developing economies. Russia, China, Brazil, India, etc. are all getting wealthy.

3) There has been no consumer education coupled with 1 and 2. The consumer today is completely malleable when it comes to fashion - they will buy what the arbiters of taste, in this case magazines and celebrities, will tell them to buy. And, the more ostentatious, the better. Therefore, whoever has the biggest advertising budget wins. Look, we can all agree if there has been a failed fashion brand, it's Versace. Yet, this year Russian Vogue put a Versace dress on the cover. Case closed.

I am sorry, but to say that Margiela is the most powerful man in fashion is simply not true. His clout is far from the likes of Lagerfeld, Jacobs, Prada and Galliano.