Designer Hype

[Faust]

Re: Designer Hype

Zamb, I don't think the race think should make anyone uncomfortable here. Feel free to share.

[JaridRose]

Re: Designer Hype



How about one of the best black designers LAWRENCE STEELE?

there's also Sterling Capricio from Chicago, based in L.A. who will be coming to NYC soon, doing well.....

how's Mike from Project Runway doing? although he wasnt great or anything...

Although Urban, I used to live next to Karl Kani and he is starting something new called Life something....

here's a link with a TON of black designers who made it.....

http://www.fashionshowroom.com/black...ers/runway.htm

[zamb]

Re: Designer Hype



I dont want us to narrow the discussion to the issue of Race, as this is only one aspect of the issue, and doesnt necessarily answer the question as to why thing are as they are, meaning, a ton of designers with very little progress in the development of fashion from a design standpoint.

your response speaks exactly to the problem. As i have said before, people now do not spend time developing thier technique, and now it is more difficult to do as the structure that made that possible is dying/no longer exist.

It is not about paying Avedon or having Kelly Cutrone dropping your name to editors, it is about creating good intelligent design that is wearable, interesting and give the customer a New perspective as to what fashion is,or can be.

If what you are saying is correct (and in some ways it is) we may as well tell the general public, and aspiring designers that it is about IMAGE, CELEBRITY and MAKING THE MOST MONEY by marketing the most bland and uninteresting clothes there is.

It is also irresponsible to ask who gives a Damn about YSL, Dior ,Parisan Couture etc. these are things that created the History and legacy upon which fashion was built and continue to be . that like playing football (Soccer)and asking who cares about Pele, Maradona of FIFA,

For me personally, i never want to be famous, I have a tremendous amount of respect for PPL like Margiela, and Chalayan, they do what they do, they are successful at it, and couldnt care whether they are famous or not,

Money is only relevant in so far as it helps to keep the business alive and to take care of the expenses and responsibilities that comes along as a result thereof. To help to take care of the staff, promote and produce the products etc, not to put me in a position for people to worship me and massage my Ego and tell me that i am semi-divine

we were born without money, and it will be of no value to us when we depart this life...................................... what will matter is the contribution we made to those who are left after we are gone, only that will remain.

ZB

[JaridRose]

Re: Designer Hype



What I'm saying is, the creative designers who DO pay Kelly and Richard get the exposure they need and the good photos they need to translate their clothing into other mediums so people will buy them so their business will stay afloat and grow...

You can start off making independent films, but if you don't pay an actor with a name or fork over some cash to get into a festival with a name, etc...

your film will go nowhere, it's the same in fashion....

the problem with all these wannabes is that they livea pipe dream, they think their ideas are so wonderful and they believe in the world so much that somehow they will just be successful in the fashion industry by sitting back with no ego and no names and no nothing but their beautiful designs.

Anyone who is failing now, I can promise you it is because they have no PR, they don't know how to sell their clothes, or it is not being seen the way that people will get it....or BAD PHOTOS!

sorry, I don't give a damn about YSL and DIOR and etc....as much as others....its just an image, yeah, they were good, so was Vionnet, but so are these new people. I don't let people tell me that they built fashion and all that.....They lived for a period of time and created clothing for a period of time and had success...that doesnt mean they should be important to anyone who wants to be a designer.

People who make money in fashion take good photos and have good PR. Period. Just ask dior and ysl. and chanel for that matter.

its fashion.

[Faust]

Re: Designer Hype

what zamb is getting at is that today people are able to buy a profession, whereas before they deserved it. the antwerp six did not need PR to be recognized, neither did CDG or Yohji. what zamb is saying is that today it has become next to impossible to do something like that, and personally i find it fucked up that some kind of fashion mafia that sits on top of this world and collects bribes in return for name dropping produces such an environment. that's clearly bullshit, and that fact that you accept it is rather sad. i am not saying that you should not accept it, but i can guarantee you that when you go in and make compromises with these people and prostitute yourself to them, you will lose a part of yourself. i don't have to be a designer to tell you that, it happens in other industries too. you can say that it's a pipe dream, but i'd rather know people who never made it but retained their integrity, instead of people who made it and lost it.

[JaridRose]

Re: Designer Hype



I get all of that, but to think that spending money on something makes you a sell-out or less of an artist/designer is childish...

My favorite photographers are the ones who command large amounts of money per shoot.

I don't look at it as buying into it.

I look at it like, hey, I'm going to make a collection. When I do, I want to spend X amount of money on a photographer, X amount on putting on a show, and X amount on getting my name out.

Are there cases where you can be talented and have people do it all for you? Yeah.

Are the bad for doing it, or less of a designer? No.

Do some people who suck make it because of the money the spend or have? Yessss. Look at the music industry for one.....

I'm talking from experience also....My first fashion show was shit. It was fun, there was tons of people there and it was in a big fashion city, L.A.

At the time I thought my amazing designs would grab everyones attention and I would at least do a little something....Wrong.

I, personally, now, want to spend 10,000 or so on a photographer, 10,000 or so on P.R. etc etc....it will take time for me to develop and etc...but that is what I want to do, not because spending the money will get me in, but because i realized that what I want is good photos, good models, good everything, and this is earth, good stuff cost money. lol

i get what both of you are saying but wise, creative, world-changing people 99 percent of the time need a little money and we need some of those things that we sometime look at as EVIL or something we dont need because we are so great and "thats not what I want it to be about."

And believe me, when I pay someone money, im not making compromises! Im paying them to do a job that I have seen them do well and expect them to do well.I chose the photographer, PR, etc. I pay them to do something, not the other way around. jeez.

People think that paying people you all of the sudden have to change or something or you are less, i am saying that is all wrong, you pay people to do things that you can't, while keeping your role as DESIGNER.

[fixoid]

Re: Designer Hype



the media as we know it is in turmoil. many of the old power structures and cartels are being broken down. vogue and gq are being replaced by blogs and youtube*. the internet is changing the ways in which people consume information; push is becoming pull. we no longer herded in to the latest trends by the specular rectangles of monthly publications. we are free to peruse our tails.

we are have entered times in which it is simple for any man to bloody to nose of mainstream media. nimble brands dance in circles around large incumbents, a million fractures are rushing through the old edifice; yet still they cling to power. their own crude sensationalism rendered null by the ordinary, these organizations are rushing to adopt the same tactics or buy the platforms that make them so.

look at what is happening in the music industry, where any cunt with a blog, mp3s, a myspace, and above all decent music can be famous in 15 in fifteen links. the litigious death spiral of the riaa. a similar thing is happening in fashion. millions of indie designers all over the world are now free to publish, promote and sell with out the need for bloated, upper eastside fuckbags with a shiny rags.

i loathe to mention cory kennedy on this board, but she is an important case study. moving from the cobrasnake to fashion boards and blogs and finally arriving at mainstream. her bit part in drunken dissolution of la night life has lead her to fame. this process is the reverse of what we had only a few years ago. i believe will see more of this in future. this will be the new model.(one can also see youtubers on tv)

the people are the media now. the media is no longer dictating and is learning to listen. this is changing the way hype is created and destroyed**. i look forward to our future, this time i have hope; unfortunately i feel it we will end up in the same banal place.

*i acknowledge that many of the platforms that make these things are owned by large corporations. i do how ever feel that this is a different issue. we are still be sold by the same people to the advertisers, but hell, at least its in a different place.

**in2u

[Running om Empty]

Re: Designer Hype

The proliferation of vacuous designs can be summed up as the voice of the plebs.

[zamb]

Re: Designer Hype



This is the reason i have a huge amount of respect for you.

You take the time to understand what the writer is trying to say, before you respond.

what JaridRose is doing is putting accross a perspective, that does not address the issues you used to start this thread. ...ie. large number of designers, stiffer competition, but a drop-off (stangnant state?)in the quality and integrity of design. He has completely changed the context of the discussion by focussing on Public Relations and Photography by a so called elite.

I dont understand How you can want Avedon to take your pictures, but not care about people like YSL and Dior. Avedons fame and success was created by working in collaboration with people of the same ilk as YSL and Dior, that is the reason why he charged that kind of money. If you are willing to pay it, you are effectively Validating the relevance of the same people you claim not to care about. if thats not the case, then why not just find a really great(talented) no name photographer (i am sure they exist) and still get the great pictures you need?

the reaffirm my position, as Faust said, people can now buy a profession, as opposed to studying, working for it. As much as i loathe Lagerfeld, no one can question the fact that he is a real designer deserving of everything he has recieved in his profession.He worked cyears ackstage before assuming hs position at Chanel in 1983

Can we say that for Muiccia Prada, Micheal Kors, etc.? the reality is PR companies are not taking the money of people who are talented, and saying OK you are gifted so we will publicize your giftedness to the relevant people, they are collecting Money and creating stories that are Corrupt lies, they are offering a full service (PR and Sales) in which "designers" do little or nothing, in terms of thier own image (the idea of "image" being a whole other story) What happens to these "designers" is that they become beholden to these people. effectively selling (or at least renting)thier souls in the process.

then it leads to the belief that it is not necessary to have any kind of talent to be a designer, you dont need to know fabrics, cuts, proportions etc, as you can pay someone to do it for you and thebecause the PR person willl buy you into the magazines and Get your bland (and copied from thrift stores, other designers etc) clothes into the stores with Press and retail connections. If you (JaridRose) cant see it then i cannot make it any more plain to you.

and for the record, I have no problem in spending money for PR etc. Neither do i berlieveI am the great hope of fashions future, it is also dangerous to assume that almost all aspiring designers thing that they are entitled, by virtue of thier talent. It is simply that if the people in the industry have any kind of integrity, greed should not overcome thier willingness to support real talent..................

[Casius]

Re: Designer Hype

Zamb, I agree with pretty much everything but this whole industry is corrupt, just like plenty others. Some are in it for the quick buck and others are not, this is the whole reason why backers bank on names such as Jessica Simpson, because it is popular right now and her name has a customer base behind it. It's easy money in other words. The products that would be pumped out for JS would most likely be shit, but most don't care because 5 years from now (or earlier), the company will have fizzled out and made thier money while the getting was good.

It's true that all marketing and PR compaigns aren't the most ethical but it's what makes money in society today. But to say that companies like CCP,Carpe, and Ann don't do PR and marketing is totally false. They may do things 'differently' than those big corporations, but they are still getting customer base through 'non marketing' marketing. The fact none of those companies do traditional marketing and PR tactics appeals to thier customer base and in turn is thier marketing. Customers look up to the fact they go against the grain in terms of PR and there for like the company and support them for doing so.

The thing is, marketing and PR doesn't account for design. Good design is good design. To say Calvin Klein doesn't have good designers because of the way they do business is absurd. They may do things that some of us may not agree with but that doesn't take away the fact they have some great designers making thier clothing. And this same thing can run the whole gammet through fashion.

But to blame the current state of fashion is wrong, I think. Look at someone like Alexander Plokhov; He worked for a big company (MJ) then formed his own company with Cloak, did that for a handful of years then is now working for another big company to pay the bills. He lived his dream, and for a time, it worked out but at the end of the day we all work because it is a way of life. We need to put food on the table and a roof over our heads and do so not just for ourselves but our family. Sometimes things don't always go as planned, but to say someone like Plokhov 'sold out' now working for Versace is just wrong. He may not want to even be there, he may wish Cloak was still up and running, but someone like himself cannot turn down a steady job, where he can still envoke his presense into fashion and not have so much stress all the time.

To run a company and a label, there is much more to the battle than just being a great designer. One of the reasons I think Cloak went downhill was a lack of management and business sense. And this could be what plenty of other designers lack when trying to find backing for thier designs. You could be a fantastic designer but if your sales pitch is, "Look at the clothes, they're made great" and that's it, you can kiss financial help good by. In today's market you need more than that, especially if you are not going to partake in some of the current PR and marketing trends.

This business may be vindictive, petty, and superficial but that's life and life's a bitch.

[Servo2000]

Re: Designer Hype

[quote user="Casius"]

To run a company and a label, there is much more to the battle than just being a great designer. One of the reasons I think Cloak went downhill was a lack of management and business sense. And this could be what plenty of other designers lack when trying to find backing for thier designs. You could be a fantastic designer but if your sales pitch is, "Look at the clothes, they're made great" and that's it, you can kiss financial help good by. In today's market you need more than that, especially if you are not going to partake in some of the current PR and marketing trends.

This business may be vindictive, petty, and superficial but that's life and life's a bitch.

[/quote]

There are valid points on both sides of the issue, but Casius summed up what I was about to mention here. I would draw an analogy to the world of painting ( of which I am more familiar. My father is a self-employed illustrator and I take lessons from professional artists at a local atelier weekly) where there is perhaps 1% of the market who is able to sell their work simply because they did it, whose work is well-enough-known that they can command prices in-line with their own self-worth, that can expirement and rely on a certain market share returning to their "name." In reality, it's more like .025% For the rest of us who want to paint, we have to do certain things to earn a living: take commissions, pay to hang our work in galleries, take out advertisements in magazines for our shows, sell our work to people or places we disagree with, show our work in sub-par conditions, etc, etc... all to be able to make a living.

Painters, photographers, designers, and so on have been
complaining for centuries probably the difficulty in balancing
art and business, sales and creativity. To say that this is particular
to fashion is simply untrue. One could argue that fashion is more tied
to the commercial aspect, but even then only in a loose way. There are
as many art magazines peddling creativity and crap as there are fashion
magazines, as many god-awful upstart painters with an idea and little
else featured in Art Forum monthly.

Now that I think about it, I can't really think of any artistic industry off the top of my head where this isn't a lament. Directors and film writers have their producers and budgets, cutting and editing their work to get the best sales. Musicians have their albums produced by record-associated producers who edit and mix the albums to sell more copies, they're put in music videos they don't necessarily have any say in. Photographers are given assignments. Ultimately, it comes down to the ability to work and create within these particular confines that generally defines an artist, since there are probably only dozens in each industry who are big enough "names" in their own right to ever earn absolute freedom and still be able to recieve backing / make money. Ultimately, it all comes more or less down to "hype," to me.

I'm leaning more toward's Casius' view on this, ultimately: too bad, suck it up, figure out how to make it work for you, and do what you love however you can.

At least, that's my plan, anyways.

edit: on a side note, despite that some of what I said sounds somewhat confrontational, I really only mean to express what are definitevely (I'm too tired for spelling) my views and only disagree on a superficial level with your views. I disagree with Zamb as well as Jarid Rose, but only really felt like responding to one of them. Anyway, interesting discussion as always!

[Faust]

Re: Designer Hype

[quote user="JaridRose"]

I get all of that, but to think that spending money on something makes you a sell-out or less of an artist/designer is childish...

My favorite photographers are the ones who command large amounts of money per shoot.

I don't look at it as buying into it.

I look at it like, hey, I'm going to make a collection. When I do, I want to spend X amount of money on a photographer, X amount on putting on a show, and X amount on getting my name out.

Are there cases where you can be talented and have people do it all for you? Yeah.

Are the bad for doing it, or less of a designer? No.

Do some people who suck make it because of the money the spend or have? Yessss. Look at the music industry for one.....

I'm talking from experience also....My first fashion show was shit. It was fun, there was tons of people there and it was in a big fashion city, L.A.

At the time I thought my amazing designs would grab everyones attention and I would at least do a little something....Wrong.

I, personally, now, want to spend 10,000 or so on a photographer, 10,000 or so on P.R. etc etc....it will take time for me to develop and etc...but that is what I want to do, not because spending the money will get me in, but because i realized that what I want is good photos, good models, good everything, and this is earth, good stuff cost money. lol

i get what both of you are saying but wise, creative, world-changing people 99 percent of the time need a little money and we need some of those things that we sometime look at as EVIL or something we dont need because we are so great and "thats not what I want it to be about."

And believe me, when I pay someone money, im not making compromises! Im paying them to do a job that I have seen them do well and expect them to do well.I chose the photographer, PR, etc. I pay them to do something, not the other way around. jeez.

People think that paying people you all of the sudden have to change or something or you are less, i am saying that is all wrong, you pay people to do things that you can't, while keeping your role as DESIGNER.

[/quote]

That is all fine, but I think we are talking about two different things right now. Getting good photos and printing catalogues is fine - you need to promote your name, especially today when the amount of garbage information you have to sift through is incredible. I was talking about people who can buy into this easily and who get blown up and become successful only because of the money they spend, and not because they have talent. Just look at NY fashion week line up, let alone the LA one.

[JaridRose]

Re: Designer Hype



Here's my final take on all of this, starting with the original post........and referencing replies that came from the post...bleh...leaving out all that tired hard for a black man crap.

"yet I personally don't see ANY noteworthy creations taking fashion industry by storm. Nothing impressive has come out lately - it's all either commercial cookie cutter shit, or over-conceptual nonsence."

anything that has ever taken the fashion industry by storm has been over-conceptual nonsence, commercial cookie cutter shit....that's how i feel. Dior, YSL, who in someones eyes are the friggin first people to ever make a damn garment, balenciaga, tom ford, proenza, posen, rhodes, rykiel, yamamoto, mcqueen, galliano. people who have actually taken the industry by storm came with something that was already done, hence the word cookie-cutter, and very over-coneptual...this can't be disputed, it is a fact in this context. it is also a fact that they ALL had PR and GOOD PHOTOS. so check it out, when DIOR and YSL (the very first fashion designers of all time) become who they were, at the time they were looked at the way we look at Tom Ford and Versace now. (eeehhhh, blehhh, i want something better) believe me DUDE it was that way. And believe me, the fashion industry, PR and BEST group of PHOTOGRAPHERS were pumping their crap full of of INDUSTRY just so people like YOU would "remember" them 50 years later, when they "we're gone", only to leave us with their adorable timeless designs. It's all crap. Look at history, it's the same as today....different people. i've been saying it all along.....Dior's photos werent taken by amateurs and neither was Tom Fords, thats why they succeeded. And look people, im using this as an example only! The photo thing! An example!

"It's not about making good clothes, it's about getting in the right magazines."

Speaking of photos, getting into the right magazines begins with good PR and good Photos, ive been saying that all along. And if people want to sit around and be mad at VOGUE because shitty designers are in there, stop reading it, stop hoping for that day that we will see good shit it in, and buy something else. Even PURPLE has shitty designers and is about THE MONEY. The money you give them for an ad...the PHOTOGRAPHER that you hire. Believe me, when you submit your stuff to Purple, they actually give you al ist of Photogrpahers that you can pay. PEOPLE, all magazines want to make money and get a wider audience. Vogues audience is shitty, and so is purples now. its all about the money...What is good clothes, what is the right magazine?

This all depends on our personal beliefs and views of the fashion industry, we all view it differently and the fact is, is that alot of people in this forum have even had their heads beaten in the ground by even the GOOD CLOTHES and RIGHT MAGAZINES, let along all the wrong ones.

Here's my point and i'm sticking too it and on to something new.....if you take anything from this it is this my friends.....

THE FASHION INDUSTRY WILL NEVER CHANGE. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE SAME SINCE VOGUE WAS CREATED OR SINCE A MONKEY GREW FRIGGIN FUR. Whenever you think it was created is up to you, it really doesnt matter...IT IS ALL HOW WE WANT TO USE IT, WHAT WE WANT TO DO WITH IT. PEOPLE DONT CHANGE THE FASHION INDUSTRY. THE FASHION INDUSTRY WONT FIRE ITS SYSTEM AFTER MILLIONS OF YEARS OF BEING AROUND JUST BECAUSE SOME IDIOT COMES ALONG WITH A PAIR OF JEANS. Why do so many people want to "be creative and meaningful" YET dive into the system that creates all this garbage? Because in all truth, that is what they really want. There are thousands of designers that CHOOSE not NEVER sell their shit and never be in magazines, because IT REALLY IS ALL ABOUT THE CLOTHES.....people that would make Cdiem and CCP and everyone of those assholes look like the Britney Spears of fashion. The point is, if you want it to be about getting in the right magazines IT IS. If you dont DONT WORRY ABOUT IT. But all these magazines will not show your shit if you dont PAY THEM, its a magazine, not Santa Claus. If you dont want to pay them, then live in la la land, get in you time machine, and go back to the time when it was different. Because it never was chieftans. it never was... IF YOURE TALENTED ENOUGH GET SOME TALENT IN BUSINESS. TAKE THE CLOTHES AND YOUR NEW FOUND BUSINESS SINCE AND MAKE MONEY TO KEEP YOUR DREAMS ALIVE. it's a two way street my friends, Santa Claus doesnt exist, neither does the fashion industry. it's all a mirage until someone finds the loophole. Dress up in Santas suit and fool them all until they figure you out.

And on a p.s. note, i love all of you, im not trying to be an asshole, really, I'm talking loud but saying it with a grin on my face.

[laika]

Re: Designer Hype



What's crap, is you dismissing Zam's perspective (which is just a part of his perspective, as he has pointed out) as crap. That's the most offensive thing i have ever read here.

You may have an interesting point somewhere, but Zam expresses himself with grace and integrity...qualities which are clearly rare in the world you are describing.

[Casius]

Re: Designer Hype

[quote user="JaridRose"]


THE FASHION INDUSTRY WILL NEVER CHANGE. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE SAME SINCE VOGUE WAS CREATED OR SINCE A MONKEY GREW FRIGGIN FUR. Whenever you think it was created is up to you, it really doesnt matter...IT IS ALL HOW WE WANT TO USE IT, WHAT WE WANT TO DO WITH IT. PEOPLE DONT CHANGE THE FASHION INDUSTRY. THE FASHION INDUSTRY WONT FIRE ITS SYSTEM AFTER MILLIONS OF YEARS OF BEING AROUND JUST BECAUSE SOME IDIOT COMES ALONG WITH A PAIR OF JEANS. Why do so many people want to "be creative and meaningful" YET dive into the system that creates all this garbage? Because in all truth, that is what they really want. There are thousands of designers that CHOOSE not NEVER sell their shit and never be in magazines, because IT REALLY IS ALL ABOUT THE CLOTHES.....people that would make Cdiem and CCP and everyone of those assholes look like the Britney Spears of fashion. The point is, if you want it to be about getting in the right magazines IT IS. If you dont DONT WORRY ABOUT IT. But all these magazines will not show your shit if you dont PAY THEM, its a magazine, not Santa Claus. If you dont want to pay them, then live in la la land, get in you time machine, and go back to the time when it was different. Because it never was chieftans. it never was... IF YOURE TALENTED ENOUGH GET SOME TALENT IN BUSINESS. TAKE THE CLOTHES AND YOUR NEW FOUND BUSINESS SINCE AND MAKE MONEY TO KEEP YOUR DREAMS ALIVE. it's a two way street my friends, Santa Claus doesnt exist, neither does the fashion industry. it's all a mirage until someone finds the loophole. Dress up in Santas suit and fool them all until they figure you out.

And on a p.s. note, i love all of you, im not trying to be an asshole, really, I'm talking loud but saying it with a grin on my face.

[/quote]

Not quite sure why photography has taken the forefront of this discussion, because as it may be relevant to PR work it is not the end all be all of making it in the fashion business. As Zamb said, I could find plenty of local photographers who are just as talented and be able to put something great together. No where in a magazine ad does it say, so and so took this picture, ooohhhh ahhh. For the most part, no one in the general public gives a shit so long as it conveys the clothing and the meaning of it.

But I really don't get your last paragraph.

"Why do so many people want to "be creative and meaningful" YET dive into the system that creates all this garbage? Because in all truth, that is what they really want."

I find this statement absolutely false. Most, not all, but most people enter this industry because they geniunly love what they do. I will agree that there are those sharks out there just willing to flip a concept to make a quick buck but fuck 'em, they won't be around long and in the long run, they don't harm a business such as Zamb. They are two totally different customer bases within fashion. Someone like CCP chooses not to partake in popular media and keeps his clothing in low production, few stores, and there for it is a much more controlled environment. He still does his own take on marketing, whether it is word of mouth or doing interviews with certain online magazines, etc. but he had a concept when starting his company and that was to keep it small and exclusive.

Now on another note, I was thinking about something on the way home from work yesterday night about if CCP went looking for financial backing and got it for his company. Basically it's a hypothetical question; What if Carol was tired of scraping by and running a small business and wanted to branch out. He got more financial backing to boost production, enter more markets through various boutiques he wasn't presently in, and cost of each garment went down because the 'hand made' aspect was more or less taken out of it and moved to larger production.

Would everyone who is a fan of Carol mind? Would we say he 'sold out'? Would it all depend on if his garments' quality went down?

I just have a feeling this is loosely what we are talking about (or trying to) with regards to fashion hype. If all the sudden someone like Carol was buying ads in Men's Vogue and doing runway shows but still producing similar garments, some people would probably be in an uproar. I personally don't mind the hype, I have my own mind and can usually make it up for myself. So if someone like CCP wanted to enter that realm of fashion, I would congratulate him, just as long as his garments and overall vision (quirky, artisinal garments) stays the same.