Is it time for a Reboot?

[zamb]

The wannabe needs the talented for "inspiration", otherwise his source and income will also run dry. So I think one cannot survive without the other. And the talented needs the wannabe's for those who like the aesthetic but want real quality, eventually the talented will have new clientele.

it sounds good to say this, but the wannabe can put the talented out of business if he has a huge amount of resources.
businesses like H&M and Zara are no different than small type copycats with the exception they are doing it on a mass scale.
What ends up happening is that people with huge resources can copy an idea and make a killing off it, where the original creator cannot even come close to that level of benefit

[zamb]

I'll pose this question as food for thought. Who succeeds, the talented designer with no sense of business or the wannabe with solid business acumen?

J,

there is no simple way of answering this question.
Without even naming names, if you look at the designers in this niche whom many would regard as at the top of the chain,
One hasn't done a collection in 5 years, another is not doing a runway show this season and another told someone privately that his business is barely holding on by a thread........Who knows who is close to going out of business that we have not heard about until an announcement is made?

As I said earlier, for us at ZB, this was a tough year, the toughest in the last 5. Luckily for us, the structure of the business provides a built in longevity and sustainability that others whose businesses are structured differently may not have.

the problem in this for the stores is that when good designers are no longer in business, there isn't much good products to sell. Innovators need to be around to move things forward. when that doesn't happen it benefits no one

[Ahimsa]

it sounds good to say this, but the wannabe can put the talented out of business if he has a huge amount of resources.
businesses like H&M and Zara are no different than small type copycats with the exception they are doing it on a mass scale.
What ends up happening is that people with huge resources can copy an idea and make a killing off it, where the original creator cannot even come close to that level of benefit

This.
It's very similar to how the tech world operates and how Microsoft used to(I used that term loosely) strong arm/outright ruin smaller companies. The big companies can just constantly take from new talent with little to no repercussions by having larger financial/legal backing.

[couturehomme]

It's just the natural business cycle tbh. Business models change as consumer behavior/technology changes so you either are able to evolve and adapt or you can't.

It certainly isn't simply a price thing either. I mean, even the shitty banana republics, j-crews, GAPs, Abercrombie e.t.c. are all losing big right now and their prices a relatively low.

Fast fashion and perceived value (at the low/medium end) seem to be driving consumer behavior. At the top end, it's still fast fashion but seems to be brand name power as well.

The middle ground is eroding. Same thing is being felt in the food/dining industry as well.

[Scander]

After a while is not boring the all black, knee-crotch pants, ninja hoodie and spiral of the spiral seams with 2 cm of overlock?
Maybe something should evolve, and I don't mean doing the same in yellow.

[zen dog]

^ Good direction Scander. Maybe it is already out there and the high cost of getting the goods to market makes it harder for the up-and-coming to bring their work to production or have some store/company take a chance on the untested.

[zamb]

After a while is not boring the all black, knee-crotch pants, ninja hoodie and spiral of the spiral seams with 2 cm of overlock?
Maybe something should evolve, and I don't mean doing the same in yellow.

Indeed, I agree,
but you do Colors, new shapes etc, and people do not buy it, neither the stores nor the customers.
I did say earlier that designers need to evolve, make new things etc. but for designers who sell only through the stores, what is produced and end up at retail is largely dictated by the choice of the buyers

[Faust]

After a while is not boring the all black, knee-crotch pants, ninja hoodie and spiral of the spiral seams with 2 cm of overlock?
Maybe something should evolve, and I don't mean doing the same in yellow.

Not necessarily. It wasn't so long ago that Rick's aesthetic did not have the sole sway of this corner of the fashion universe. We had Ann, we had Yohji, we had CDiem, Number (N)ine, CCP, all different propositions within the same realm. There are enough variations. People have become too narrow-minded. The kids follow the rappers.

[zen dog]

Well, Zamb, I hope you are following your heart and not worried that if you put something too off your path that store buyers would be scared off.

I will put this out to people who are more knowledgeable or have a better memory than me. Where have movements sprung up in the past? Has it come from one or several mind bending designers bringing their wares to market? Or have ideas come into general consciousness from social movements, music, films, etc? And maybe the designers were right along with the movements but it took that push into the milieu for them to be recognized. If it is usually the former, then we just have to wait and our only satisfaction will be to say we saw it coming.

I can think of English punk that came from economic stress but Malcom McLaren and Vivian Westwood were right there pushing forward with their style. Was it the 1970's that brought Heroin Chic- stringy hair and models that came from and embraced, well, you know?

I like going back to about 1933 where Clark Gable in "It Happened One Night" appeared without an undershirt and sales plummeted. I think it was Brando in the 1950's "The Wild Ones" who brought t-shirts and leather jackets into bad-boy popularity. It took the British invading America with the Beatles to challenge our fashion sense. One music movement after another toppled the progressive that had become the norm.

I welcome (polite) correction as my term paper days are over. Casually looking back over previous centuries was it not the need be "bad" to usurp the now stodgy but an excitement over new materials, patterns, cuts from other parts of the world? People like Mr. Small would be welcome in any century but now could be seen as reactionary because they push the best in workmanship and materials to heights few can financially climb.

[Fenix]

The kids follow the rappers.

At the end of the day isn't that what it's all about? Creating a desirable product and then building a brand around it.

This is more or less what Rick and Thom Browne did. Create some really great key pieces and benefit from publicity in one form or another. The price points on those pieces are difficult to obtain for the masses so they pad the brand with entry point items that are still recognizeable.

The kids start spending on the $300-500 tees and polos just to have something because they cannot afford the leathers and suits. The loyal clients buy these same pieces cause it's a drop in the bucket and fits their aesthetic.

If you are unable to build out the brand, it's going to be a challenge in this day and age. You best have a really unique, quality product that speaks for itself and even then you're fighting an uphill battle.

[zen dog]

Yes, Fenix- the stupidity of youth- overpaying for a pair of sweatpants with D&G on the ass because that is the price point that you can afford that gives you access to and the status of the brand.

I had a frightening thought over dinner: Maybe we are too long in the tooth chronologically or esthetically. All of this interconnectivity of the internet, carried in one's hand now has produced a hive mind.

The fact of fast fashion and crap (financially accessible) production buys (if you please) into the status of up to date fashion knowledge through the consumption of a group aware that the next great thing is around the corner. Just as a new movement challenges the ideals of the previous generation (which is what, about 2 years now?) our status quo is being challenged now. We think quality and good design are the parameters within which we search for the fresh.

But youth has found something that we hold dear and don't want to give up. Unlike the past it isn't a conscious rebellion (forgive them for they know not what they do) but if you let go of your standards and look at the fundamental shake-up- haven't they found something to shake our foundations? Worshipping celebrity culture and being in the know (never mind that what passes for knowledge is cause for despair) manifests itself in a few buttons pushed on something that fits easily in your hand. The revolution will not be televised but you can see it when you look over their shoulders.

Suddenly, in our push to go beyond stasis, we are left holding the well made bag. Good by quality and good design- we heard the noise but never saw the train.

[Faust]

I will still maintain that we are in a bubble. There is too much fashion and it's too expensive. I am in a perpetual state of cognitive dissonance between what I see and what every fashion "we-are-doing-great!" article tells me.

I believe the things we have started to read this year - Prada not doing great, Band of Outsiders, Kris van Assche, Jonathan Saunders, Alexandre Plokhov closing, Marc Jacobs possibly on the verge of imploding, etc. - is just the beginning.

Next will be the stores - we've already seen Barneys and Saks quietly closing a bunch of stores, cutting losses of over expansion. I think more will come.

I could be wrong, of course, as I cannot look into designers' and stores' books, but I am convinced that the picture is far less rosy than we are led to believe. It's just in fashion everyone has a grand opening, but when it's closing time everything is hush-hush, cause, you know, it ain't glamorous.

[kuriz]

I will still maintain that we are in a bubble. There is too much fashion and it's too expensive.

People are not willing to pay for fashion and goes instead to fast fashion, at the same time as SZ brands pricing (the ones doing the actual interesting work) have been skyrocketing.

Like you posted earlier, we have seen several brands operating under the same realm living alongside. So it's not necessarily a problem that there's way too much fashion is it, wouldn't it be more that SZ brands in some way needs to lower prices for it to be more accesible for the average buyer to obtain so that he or she chooses this instead of the fast fashions too low prices with all negative (and positive) effects this leads with it? And then of course that fast fashion over time needs to raise it's prices (dream thinking most likely) to a level that actually makes sense to weigh up for most of those negative effects.

I am asking this because I simply cannot make sense of it as it is such a complex question.

[sshum88]

Lot of interesting discussion here. Going back to the original question "does the industry need a reboot?". I would say Yes with the caveat that it doesn't apply to consumers which fit into the 1%.

The business model needs to be changed according to the different streams within the industry. It can't be the same for fast fashion as it is for high fashion. I think it's also very different for menswear vs. womenswear.

It's already been suggested elsewhere on this forum about having 1 collection per year. More designers could try this. I find the cycles are so fast now that I'm seeing SS collections 'pop' up in online stores even before FW is done. And I'm not talking about a few weeks, but 2-3 months. As a consumer, I'm still trying to decide what I may purchase from the FW collections.

Pricing is a factor especially for those of us, where our currency is seriously hurting against the USD (approx. +40% for Canadians). If i factor in customs/duties/taxes, I usually add another 30-35%. So we are left with a decision as to whether or not this item is worth the amount we pay. And even worse, when we no longer have the ability to experience the item in person anymore (better for those of us in bigger metropolitan cities, but even still you are subjected to the buyers for those retailers in your city).

These days, I'm less inclined to purchase something because I don't 'really' know what that piece is like. It's too risky on items in the price ranges we see here. Returns (if it's an option) are a hassle especially with anything crossing borders and the secondary market is a bust.

I'm grateful for retailers where they help to fill in some of those gaps in the decision making process. Yes it can be a long process resulting in a sale or not. Hopefully consumers will recognize these efforts and go back to purchase from the same retailer later on if they don't make a purchase the 1st time. So a relationship with a retailer and/or designer would help. But we have to recognize that retailers/designer have limited resources and cannot necessarily respond as quickly as those who may have dedicated teams to support the dialog between consumer and retailer.

There's no right answer or at least a silver bullet. I find it crazy that Drake releases his video wearing Moncler and Timberlands and immediately sales of those items increase exponentially. Talk about product placement.

[Faust]

People are not willing to pay for fashion and goes instead to fast fashion, at the same time as SZ brands pricing (the ones doing the actual interesting work) have been skyrocketing.

Like you posted earlier, we have seen several brands operating under the same realm living alongside. So it's not necessarily a problem that there's way too much fashion is it, wouldn't it be more that SZ brands in some way needs to lower prices for it to be more accesible for the average buyer to obtain so that he or she chooses this instead of the fast fashions too low prices with all negative (and positive) effects this leads with it? And then of course that fast fashion over time needs to raise it's prices (dream thinking most likely) to a level that actually makes sense to weigh up for most of those negative effects.

I am asking this because I simply cannot make sense of it as it is such a complex question.

This market has absolutely nothing to do with fast fashion. They are simply two different markets catering to two different audiences. I don't know what you are talking about.