Is it time for a Reboot?

[deadboy]

There's been some interesting ideas shared so far. What I'm curious about is, if a reboot is needed, assuming it's at the designer level (and forgetting for a moment the massive question of 'how'), should the focus be on changing the business model, or changing the content?

[zamb]

There's been some interesting ideas shared so far. What I'm curious about is, if a reboot is needed, assuming it's at the designer level (and forgetting for a moment the massive question of 'how'), should the focus be on changing the business model, or changing the content?

It cannot be simply at the designer level, the designer is not divorced from the rest of the industry and is going to be affected by the way stores and consumers operate and vice versa

there has to be several models, I personally have both suggested, and tried some things and some has worked and some has not.

Having a better more flexible relationship with stores surely help. One of the things that i could personally offer to stores is the opportunity to do immediate orders, I have suggested this, and only two has ever taken advantage of it. by immediate i mean, if something is ordered and sold out, and there is a demand for it in season, it is often possible to order it with a very quick turnaround.

I also think stores can and should try to order closer to the season. I understand the need traditionally for longer production times, however the downside of this is that thousands of dollars are tied up for an extended period of time before anyone can see a return on their investment.

the idea of one collection and year can work for some people, but it isn't a good idea for everyone. Personally i would never do it, of course two is enough, and you'd never see me doing resort, holiday, pre collections and whatever nonsense is the new thing now.

And Yes, another problem is there seems to be a significant overlap in what is being offered by too many designers in the niche, I guess finding your own voice and eking out your own good segment will become more necessary for ones success than before.

[Defender]

Maybe we are already after the bubble, and the designers many people on SZ liked in the mid 2000s who are now gone were the fat that got trimmed.

Now we are in the rebuilding stage, ready for a renaissance.

Or we are in the "disco" stage, where the fashion of the 2000s is like the rock of the 60s, and now disco will be around for a decade, then grunge, then boy bands, then electronica.

No matter what happens, I don't think anyone around here will be dressing allllll that differently for the next twenty or thirty years. SZ has all been basically wearing the same thing for a decade (look at the oldest waywt posts). Leathers and oddly-seamed pants and fine knits or long tees.

If people start with gold bangles and platform shoes we'll know what's coming next.

[Fenix]

should the focus be on changing the business model, or changing the content?

I suppose this really depends on which brand you look at. My thoughts are it will definitely focus around the business model and establishing a true brand....not so much a huge shift in content. However, there are probably some that would be better off going in an entirely different direction.

I feel like there are several of these brands that are just not recognizeable which poses a huge issue. Again, I'll use Rick as an example. He, nor the business, seems to have issues with the imitators because his brand is recognizeable and the imitators are just generating publicity for him.

On the other side of things...I'll pick Plokhov since the damage is done and as an attempt to not offend people. His stuff isn't that recognizeable. Maybe a bit to some people but for the most part many wouldn't know the creator from the imitator without getting intimate with these articles of clothing. That is a major issue if you are a business.

[sshum88]

It's going to be really hard to differentiate unless you are loyal to the brand. As Z mentioned previously, no one buys color - it's a lot of blacks and greys. So unless you can handle the pieces in person, 1 black t-shirt / long sleeve looks like the next. And most people will just select the brand they know if price is the same.

It also doesn't help when some of these lines are now available through lots of stockists (online + b&m) while others have very limited distribution making it much easier for a consumer to pick up.

[tonecrush]

I would like to point out as a consumer in a specific situation that it's pretty hard to actually support designers when all the stores close and drop lines so that they can not be handled in person. I would be shopping retail a lot more often if this was the case.

I became infatuated with this niche through my experiences at the only good boutique in my city and now it's gone, there is no way to actively participate. I don't really enjoy having to resell things that don't fit, and for this reason I go 2nd hand to try a lot of things out so as to not lose too much.

[Chinorlz]

Lots of interesting discussion here....

One of the business models that I have worked with in Japan is something close to the "trunk show" method. The store purchases pieces that they are most interested in, but just 1 of each (usually in the store owner's size). These pieces are then set up and displayed in the store and clients are invited in to see/feel/handle the pieces. Orders are then placed during a set time frame (ie- pieces are shown for X number of months), the store takes a deposit from the clients, and the store informs the designer of what pieces and sizes to make.

Everyone is guaranteed their part of the deal in this way. Granted this requires a number of things that may be culturally related such as loyal clientele, patient clientele willing to order and wait, and a store that is able to run on such a model.

Aside from this, a number of stores at least try to arrange for a consignment arrangement with designers. In my mind, this is the worst deal for the designer as they have to front EVERYTHING with no guarantee of sale. Sadly, for some small scale/younger designers they are left with few options to get into stores because places aren't willing to outright buy. Pretty unfortunate.

Zam and others also touched on the fundamental lack of innovation in the current menswear market. How many rehashings of overlock, drop crotch, drapey, CCP/BBS "inspired" works can we see? What's worse is that these 'designers' doing this are trying to command the same pricing as those they're copying. Of course it is way easier to complain than to do something about it, but I definitely haven't seen any new designers that are doing super exciting stuff either in quite some time.

Just some things I've noticed over the last few years... hard to say what a truly viable new solution is. Just hope to see fellow designers continuing to move forward and have enough support to keep the lights on!

[TriggerDiscipline]

yeah but that store you dealt with apparently doesn't like to make profit and likes to discourage people from buying, so I am not sure if that is the best store to even pick as an example.

[delayedReaction]

I'm curious to know if this is essentially a case of a classic race to the bottom because of a lack of aesthetic differentiation and/or echoes of the same problems with the tail end of 90s minimalism where consumers of Prada/Helmut Lang/Sander/Calvin Klein started seeing too much of the same stuff and stopped buying as much.

For me, I'm coming from a corporate creative environment, so I can pull off a good chunk of a SZ approved aesthetic, but I still find myself mostly purchasing essentially undifferentiated pieces (black, gray, asymmetric, long, probably with a raw edge) for a couple of reasons:

1. Travel 190 days in a hotel this year/130k butt-in-seat domestic miles. I don't trust hotel laundry with anything unique or that requires special instructions. Rather selfishly, I'd love for someone to do a capsule collection in travel friendly fabrics (merino wool?) that can stand being sent out for laundry, pieces that folds down to a compact size to avoid checking luggage, stuff you can sink wash and hang dry in 20 minutes, etc. As it stands, I have a lot of black/gray/white athleisure/techwear stuff from startups for traveling.
2. Other competing priorities With prices climbing into low to mid four digits for the halo/signature pieces that I do admire, I'm now evaluating a piece of clothing, which I might not be able to wear to work, against costs associated with international leisure travel. Guess what's going to lose every time?

What I feel like is missing are pieces that acknowledge contemporary life like carrying a smartphone/tech gear and wearing a smartwatch (extra long jacket/hoodie sleeves don't play well at all) but also reflects a particular aesthetic. So I find myself purchasing elsewhere and having to aggressively edit so I don't look like a cyberpunk cosplayer.

[Chinorlz]

yeah but that store you dealt with apparently doesn't like to make profit and likes to discourage people from buying, so I am not sure if that is the best store to even pick as an example.

Sounds like you had a bad experience not necessarily with the aspect of the business model as I laid out and moreso with the way the store is run? The latter I cannot comment on, but the concept of the presentation-then-order is a nice one.

[sshum88]

Agree. This may be the only way for some of us to actually handle a piece prior to purchase. Plus it minimizes some of the risk for the retailer and designer.

I also agree with A's earlier point about consignment as it happens in some other artisan industries as well. Designer/maker fronts all the $$$ upfront and hopes that the goods will sell. Maybe it works for the very short term or you have some financial backing but for those that I know in that industry, it is not sustainable long term.

but the concept of the presentation-then-order is a nice one.

[TriggerDiscipline]

I dont have a problem with the approach but it breeds elitism in the most negative of ways and denies the general customer a chance to purchase/view/preorder.

so unless you have spent baller money with that store chances are you wont be invited to the preorder events.

It's happened to me with another store where I was told I couldn't touch the racks of Devoa preorder because I didnt reserve a timeslot despite no one was being there.

Also lets be honest here I am no stranger to these menswear stores, at least here in Japan because there aren't that many foreigners who can speak fluent Japanese and have an interest in this particular niche. (if you know others introduce me please) so an average person (including natives) that would stumble into the store would have a harder time, possibly.

It also happened again where the store in question came out with Layer zero pieces and despite me being there right on time, they wrote on facebook, maybe an hour before the store opened (which they open at 3PM mind you...) that you must call to reserve a time slot. When they finally showed up to open the store they told me I could not go inside because I had not put down my reservation via phone and I would not be able to see the pieces until the following weekend. Even if I wanted to just go in to look I couldn't.

I had also been to the store personally several times and had constantly told them to please email me or contact me when they were going to get a shipment, and despite me telling them they never did. So I never recommend that place to anyone and have never gone back again.

that particular "store" if you could call it that, is not a very friendly place to shop, to the point that they do not even get stock out of your size despite having it.

If we want to talk about rebooting there could be an argument that the sales models need rebooting as well, not just what is being put out there on the design side and I am very close to both sides.

[zamb]

Gunman,
I understand what you are saying and agree, but as Albert outlined. the business model used by the store is a very good way of eliminating the guess game and securing everybody's interest.
in this way, sales an production are dictated by the orders from the consumer. I have dealt with them and they are one of the best stores to do business with, being a designer.

Now, i have never been to Japan (long overdue) and don't know what it is like to be a customer who wants to shop there so I cannot comment on your experience except to say I know you and you are a loyal client and I know the store that they are passionate about design and its unfortunate that a customer like you did not get to build a relationship with store that appreciates design in the same manner you do...

[zamb]

If we want to talk about rebooting there could be an argument that the sales models need rebooting as well, not just what is being put out there on the design side and I am very close to both sides.

Agreed, and this is what we are getting at, both designers, manufacturers and consumers need to rethink how we go about it all.
What i see happening is that very god designers who are interested in making a quality product is going out of business. being replaced by wannabees and watered down talents. its interesting to see how it plays out

[aussy]

the "trunk show" method

If small production clothing was as easy to sling as soap and 'geometric' jewelry, designers could arrange a mall/fair tour. I could see the method of sale you described working well in a few US cities, especially if an event was planned around it (ex. any NY SZ event though realistically more casual). I can't see it supporting a designer alone but it can act as another way to diversify customer engagement and reach and build one's 'brand'.

On that note, what ways other than bm retailers, ecommerce and social media, dressing celebrities would you welcome designers to adopt in order to push their goods? Could we blame a lack of creativity not just in clothes but also in presentation, marketing and sales for fashion's current state?

If a needless fashion film is as far 'out there' as marketers campaign for the sake of building brand identity, we're in trouble.