WTF

[gerry]

Admittedly, this is not her best look, and she's certainly taken her style in an unexpected direction.

That being said, WOW. "she is going to ruin it with her pedestrian hair and make-up"?? This board needs an attitude adjustment. The disdain towards celebrities or people whose style is supposedly not pure or edgy enough to wear certain designs or designers is ridiculous, and the sense of superiority that many on this board feel is absolutely repugnant. It is a dress. I'd rather say that this dress doesn't do her justice than that she doesn't do the dress justice. There are no rules or limitations as to who can wear what, and who are you to say that she shouldn't wear hoop earrings with it? She's experimenting with her style, and whatever her motivations are, this is a direction she's trying. Who fucking cares? I couldn't give less of a shit if someone wears a Rick Owens leather jacket with a Juicy Couture dress or if Beyonce wears hoops earrings with a Gareth Pugh dress.


That being said, despite the fact that I think the look is unsuccessful, I find the mixture of edgier more avant garde fashions with hip hop styles a really interesting emerging trend, and one that I think we would all do well to follow.

Hate to be the elitist, but I do find it distasteful when what someone wears doesn't match their style.

I do see a separation between fashion and clothing and I think if you are wearing the first there should be a personal thread that connects the representation of the clothing to the wearer. That thread is kind of lost with celebrities because generally speaking they don't dress themselves.

This actually has nothing to do with Beyonce.

In my opinion, of course. I don't think I'm right, but this is what I give priority to.

[gerry]

^ Lolz.

Ummmmm... I don't think that my opinion is the only thing that holds value? or... I don't think my approach is the only valid one?

edit I'm a little more biased than I'd like to be. I am also embittered by attending school with fashion kids and am desperately waiting for someone to explain to me why say, Prada is awesome.

I think I'd like to be presented with a valid argument as to why everything I sort of kind of maybe believe is wrong. I don't like feeling elitist.

[gerry]

i'm noticing people acting very apologetic whenever they say something that is by default their own personal view of anything, it troubles me of late

Really? that is troubling.

My own apologizing has come about mostly from (recent) awkwardly heated discussions about Marc Jacobs and company. I feel like I've been trying to figure out why MJ and other designer royalty were the shit since I first was interested in fashion. I suppose when I argue against something where I assume most people disagree with me, I make the assumption that I'm missing out on some huge piece of information and talk myself out of it.

[Fade to Black]

isn't that a sort of inherent quality to any opinion? i'm noticing people acting very apologetic whenever they say something that is by default their own personal view of anything, it troubles me of late

+1

gerry don't need to be so self critical! your opinion is no less valid than anybody else's. if you are willing to be as vocal as you have, and bring an opinionated insight into the forum, then you must at least hold some weight attached to it.

I've always thought that people who criticize others' opinions as being "preached as if it was the holy truth" as somewhat of a platitude. Well of course they believe fully in what they say, whether it's right or wrong, otherwise why else would they say it?

edit: Marc Jacobs is popular because he has the right PR and marketing, and overall is accessible, more so than most other fashion designers, even in the mainstream. They are clothes that do not require much thought or personality to carry. Doesn't mean they always look bad, but he's one of the "easier" designers.

His attachment with LV also gives him more cred to some crowds that normally don't follow high fashion design too closely, eg. the hypebeast crowd.

[Faust]

I agree as well, and this is exactly why I discourage celebrity talk here. Most celebs don't give a shit about fashion, they have stylists who work for them, and you can't buy taste, period. And when they turn fashion into kitsch, we have a right to voice an objection. But since such objections often come across as simple hatred, we shall refrain from it, as the fucking manifesto says. Case closed. PM sent. Game over.

Mona, apologies for misrepresenting your post. I was following the misogynist track the thread went on after your post.

[Fade to Black]

the word kitsch itself is interesting, the Kundera book we recently discussed in the reading thread had a section devoted to tracking the trajectory of this word's meaning. Since it is your native tongue, is the original intent of the word kitsch meant to have a positive, or negative implication? I'm still not so sure I understand this concept even after reading that book. Previously I'd just assumed 'kitsch' was another word for 'tacky' but it looks like it has deeper origins than that

[Faust]

Mmmm, Matt, I am not sure where to start. Czech is not my native language, that's one. Kitsch is a German word, that's two. Tacky is definitely a part of what kitsch means, but I am not sure how to explain more (at 11 p.m. after a tiring day), but may I direct you to Wikipedia for a start?

I think I also have a bit of a different definition of kitsch from the traditional one. It has to do with meaning and context, and I will elaborate more during day time if you prod me.

[Fade to Black]

ahh crap my bad i always thought kitsch was a russian word. i read things then usually have a very rough memory of the details. will go look up some outside research on this subject.

[theaddict]

i always wonder again about the many german words which are used in other languages...
For Kitsch, indeed its meaning is tacky. But it has not per se a negative implication.
There are girls who admit to love kitschiges stuff and boys mostly deny to like it. A Christmas tree for example can be decorated very kitschig if it is fully loaded with ornaments, puppets and rose colour stuff.
Hello Kitty is kitschig, Rick Owens stuff is not kitschig...but a positive or negative implication is in my experience of this word dependent on the one who says it and his point of view.
If i would say kitschig to something i would mean it in a negative way ...I dont like kitsch...didnt check what Wikipedia says though(not sure if this was of any help)

[laika]

ahh crap my bad i always thought kitsch was a russian word. i read things then usually have a very rough memory of the details. will go look up some outside research on this subject.

it's a weird word. one of the few you find in the Oxford English Dictionary with almost no etymology. As far as I know, the original implications were definitely negative, although certain strains of postmodernism have sought to change that...

****and i had totally forgotten about that bit from kundera!! something about the denial of shit and two rolling tears, no? Also, i believe he says that kitsch excludes irony, which is probably different from whatever faust's understanding is.

[Fuuma]

Mmmm, Matt, I am not sure where to start. Czech is not my native language, that's one. Kitsch is a German word, that's two. Tacky is definitely a part of what kitsch means, but I am not sure how to explain more (at 11 p.m. after a tiring day), but may I direct you to Wikipedia for a start?

I think I also have a bit of a different definition of kitsch from the traditional one. It has to do with meaning and context, and I will elaborate more during day time if you prod me.

To put it simply and in Kundera's own words (translated from french), kitsch is the negation of shit, of all that is terrible in the world. There is no irony in there, it's a troubling and blind kind of being naive.

Ps: I didn't want to jump in the previous discussion as I feel totally qualified to judge an entertainer as pointless or badly dressed.

[deleuze]

Clothing line designed by the former head tailor at CCP http://www.karmaloop.com/vendor.aspx...de=ART&bysex=1

[Fade to Black]

To put it simply and in Kundera's own words (translated from french), kitsch is the negation of shit, of all that is terrible in the world. There is no irony in there, it's a troubling and blind kind of being naive.

going off of this and in response to laika - how is this definition inherently negative? It strikes me as some kind of utopian idealism. The futility and naivety in believing such a thing can be attained is perhaps where I might see it as being not so positive, but still doesn't strike me as necessarily bad.

edit: just re-read Fuuma's post for greater clarity - this seems to be the definition in Kundera's terms. Perhaps this may be one of those postmodern alterations you originally spoke of, laika.

[Fade to Black]

i always wonder again about the many german words which are used in other languages...
For Kitsch, indeed its meaning is tacky. But it has not per se a negative implication.
There are girls who admit to love kitschiges stuff and boys mostly deny to like it. A Christmas tree for example can be decorated very kitschig if it is fully loaded with ornaments, puppets and rose colour stuff.
Hello Kitty is kitschig, Rick Owens stuff is not kitschig...but a positive or negative implication is in my experience of this word dependent on the one who says it and his point of view.
If i would say kitschig to something i would mean it in a negative way ...I dont like kitsch...didnt check what Wikipedia says though(not sure if this was of any help)

Heh now that you mention it, Takashi Murakami must be the god of "kitschig" then

[Faust]

it's a weird word. one of the few you find in the Oxford English Dictionary with almost no etymology. As far as I know, the original implications were definitely negative, although certain strains of postmodernism have sought to change that...

****and i had totally forgotten about that bit from kundera!! something about the denial of shit and two rolling tears, no? Also, i believe he says that kitsch excludes irony, which is probably different from whatever faust's understanding is.

No, my (perceived?) difference has nothing to do with irony. It has more to do with context and meaning - I think just like something not originally campy can become camp, something not originally kitschy can become kitsch. For example, when a million retards go to see Dali and hang his stuff on their walls just because they think it makes them cultured, Dali becomes kitsch. Two things happen here, the meaning of the object is lost and the context changes. Another difference from the "classic" definition of kitsch is that I don't apply it only to art. Any object from which meaning is disassociated can become kitsch - including fashion. Matt, note, this is not the classic definition of kitsch.

Kitsch originally basically meant debased art. I believe the term was born in late High Modernism period (I guess 30s, maybe a bit earlier). More on debased art later.