WTF

[Shucks]

People here do make sacrifices for the clothes they buy.

yes! what beardown and kuugaia said.

it is a personal choice to buy less and better. it really annoys the fuck out of me when people react as if i'm somehow spoiled. i just have very clear priorities and don't waste as much money on utter shit as they do.

In a less obvious form, its giving support to the people that shouldn't exist.

hopefully drawing attention to these counterfeiters sometimes also helps companies shut them down. in fact, i would recommend that everyone who finds something like that sends an email with that information to the companies being copied.

also, such counterfeiters are fully aware that many of their customers will sell the shit on ebay etc. that's why they even copy tags etc. - it creates more business...

lastly, for those who don't already know this: the same people who run counterfeiting operations are often tied up with organized crime (guns and narcotics) and even help finance terrorism. it's a dirty business.

[OOO-]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rick-owens-avant-collection-jacket-/270657066295?pt=US_CSA_MC_Outerwear&hash=item3f046b1537#ht_10049wt_1141

[thehouseofdis]

^ that's the same company that make the fake Demeulemeester things.

[beardown]

I'm glad this has turned into an opportunity to discuss the issues rather than for people to get worked up. One of the things I love about SZ above all other online communities.

ProfMonnitoff, if you're referring to 'privilege' in terms of 'I'm privileged to have a roof over my head where some people do not.' or 'I'm privileged to have a meal where some go hungry' or 'I'm privileged to have a certain amount of freedom that others may not have,' then you're right.

But I still think it's absurd to suggest that the members here who buy from designers have disposable means to do so. Many times it's about allocation and management and giving up some items in life to pursue other things. And that's not privilege in my opinion...it's usually the result of spending smarter and (for some) a line of credit.
Certainly privileged people can be common in areas of fashion but I'd hesitate to say that's the norm around these parts.

As Kuugia said, where there is a will, there is a way.

That dude who had 12 different new Julius leathers bought from the same season? That's privilege in my opinion. Not the guy who saves his hard earned money for 8 months to buy one winter coat because he relates to that more than any other designer or coat out there.
That's passion, not privilege.

[lowrey]

Many times it's about allocation and management and giving up some items in life to pursue other things. And that's not privilege in my opinion...

I suppose just the ability to allocate even a part of your income into something non-vital could be considered a privilege, as you said it all depends on how you define it.

Ultimately I don't really think its necessary to try and classify the members of this forum; its probably fair to say we have a pretty full spectrum here on SZ, ranging from many not currently able to afford many of the things covered here but wanting to discuss them, to those who have the possibility to spend good amounts on clothes without it taking away from other spending.

[Faust]

/\ agreed. and, ultimately, it doesn't matter how much money a person has or where it comes from (legally, i mean!). it's about why you buy what you buy.

[Chant]

... and how you wear it, no ?

[Faust]

/\ naturally :-)

[mizzar]

lastly, for those who don't already know this: the same people who run counterfeiting operations are often tied up with organized crime (guns and narcotics) and even help finance terrorism. it's a dirty business.

Oh, come on!
This is bs.
If you bother a little and do some research you'll find out that most of counterfeiting operations (of clothing connected to this forum in some ways) are just a small atelier, or some small workshops.
I'm talking not about t-shirts, but more complicated pieces.
It's in a way, made by hand production from inferior materials by some sad sad chinese people who just want to make a living.
From my point of view South Korea knock off are much more debatable, they use good machinery, much better fabrics, and knock-off everything but logos. And if chinese fakes costs about 20-100$, Skorea fakes climb up to 500 Euros.

My thoughts:
1. Chinese fakes for those who could not pay for any piece of clothing more then 25 bucks a month, or even less. But if they pay for something they want it to reflect their dreams. For example i'm living in Ukraine and even for more then 90% of population of it's capital Zara is considered pricey. Minimall salary is around 100$/month. And "officall "avarage salary is around 300$/month. And customs taxes are around +40% on anything that costs more then 200Euros. Last time i was receiving some sneakers and customs demanded me to write down sole composition or they confiscate. So for many Ukranians fakes are not a way to steal from designers, but a way to not wearing potato sacks.
P.s. Levis 501 here costs around 150$(sale) to 200$.

2. SKorea knock-offs (or Black Scissors and likes) are for those who don't respect designer, their work, idea or aesthetics.
This fakes are not so much cheaper, and sometimes you can have authentic goods for same price or a little bit more.
example: www.mens-on.com

[Shucks]

Oh, come on!
This is bs.
If you bother a little and do some research you'll find out that most of counterfeiting operations (of clothing connected to this forum in some ways) are just a small atelier, or some small workshops.
I'm talking not about t-shirts, but more complicated pieces.

Look, I deal with intellectual property issues on a DAILY basis. And though counterfeiting is a broad phenomenon, I am right. Yes, there are small indie bootleggers. But it is also a huge global business run by some super shady characters. Even smaller guys often have to pay the local mafia to be allowed to do their business. In fact, often there is just no way to know what the fuck you are buying, how it was made or where your money will end up. It's like buying drugs, except sometimes you don't even realize it.

[kunk75]

this is a fantastic post and definitely rings true. I often forget how lucky I am that this stuff is even in the consideration set when there are people struggling to make ends meet.

It takes a certain level of wealth/privilege to be able to afford the clothes we talk about here, skipping meals or not. That, or financial irresponsibility. You can talk about vision and values as much as you want, but at the end of the day it's still 1000 for boots and a few G's for a leather jacket.

[BUMMER]

bootlegs

1. I can't explain the $2500 Undercover Magazine. That's why I posted it!-But I will sell anyone interested MY copy for a mere $2400!
2. Maybe snobbish to say-But IMO (opinion and observations) the Chinese bootlegs i've seen are not meant for, or generally worn by, the 'underprivileged'. They are generally worn by people who don't know the difference and don't really care. So it ends up being ugly imitations made worse by lazy people with poor style. I take the same issue with people I see wearing a pile of cool brands with zero personal style. It's ugly for the sheer fact that it expresses such a high level of laziness.
I'd rather see, for example, people wearing those old extra large raver high tops I used to see in the mid 90s (that HAD to be one of the inspirations for the Rick trainers) than fake mis-shapen, bootleg Rick Trainers. Truth be told, I didn't love those raver hi-tops, but I did say rather. I love to see someone do their own version of a runway look with a vintage piece or something that the runway look/piece was based on.. It's always great to see someone use their eye and ingenuity to do something that looks good: It takes it beyond 'how much did that cost?
Before I bought my Anne riding boots, I had a pair of authentic vintage German riding boots. They were beautifully handmade..(Unfortunately, they were stolen..)
Anyway, I think you all get the point.

[BUMMER]

Furthermore..

..And I think it's a bit boring and pointless to talk about whether one is feeling guilty (or not) for being able to buy the stuff discussed on this forum. I mean, it is a fashion forum with people posting their insane hauls and wardrobes. I'm all for people being grateful/not taking things for granted too...But the dividing line for me is creativity, thoughtfulness and responsibility.
Way before I could afford any of this crap (sorry to the offended) I found less expensive but no less genuine things that had the same shape/cut and color that would give me the feeling I desired while wearing them. That took a lot of effort. More effort than it takes to get if from designers actually... But it was also a lot of fun!
Anyway, again, it's all about how it's done. That's style. Its fun, creative, thoughtful and means something. It's not about money. Take a look at the WAYWT thread: Even HERE it's obvious that money can't buy style.
As Beuys said: ''Creativity = Capital"

[MetroBulotDodo]

You're new so I won't be too harsh.

I think it's shortsighted to refer to people who indulge in authentic designer work to be 'privileged.' There are people who literally skip meals and allocate funds from the necessities to buy clothing they relate to and enjoy. I'm not saying it's the proper way to live but it certainly does happen. And they do that because they have a passion for it and it's something that moves them, obviously.

Don't be so quick to stereotype and pigeonhole the members here. I'm pretty sure we get every walk of life joining us and it's not a wealthy, elitist squad if that's what you're suggesting.

That's the biggest problem I have with your comment...this idea that since we purchase it that we have disposable means to do so. I grew up pretty dirt poor and as I've grown, I don't mind the idea of spending a lot of money on something that I care about that's the result of an artist's vision and ideas. It makes me value the object that much more.

In my opinion, cheap copycat crap goes against everything I believed SZ to stand for. Because when you support it, you instantly go from falling in love with those ideas and concepts and vision into falling in love with the actual material item at its lowest common denominator.

My experience was that before I could afford certain items I really wanted, I did my best to recreate them using some imagination, creativity and personal effort. Which is way cooler than running down to the mall and buying some cheap chinese knock-off.
But we're in an era where consumerism is encouraged and everything is disposable by seasons. I can't change that. I certainly don't condone it but some things are beyond our control.

From an ethical standpoint, it's complete bullshit. Period. That's my take on it. It's stealing someone else's intellectual property for profit off of someone else's hard work and original ideas.

On a deeper level, will customers who buy the cheap theft versions grow up to buy the authentic versions? I don't think so. I think if you grow up looking for cheap alternatives to original concepts and work, you're suckling from the teet of convenience and the average person likely won't get weened.

But that's really neither here nor there.
Again, my problem is that it turns these brilliant ideas and concepts into cheap consumable/disposable products.

It's enough of a battle for some of these designers to keep companies like All Saints, etc. at bay. As an artist, moreso than the idea of someone stealing your work or ideas to profit of them, it stings the most that they've turned it into something it's not supposed to be.

I'm glad this has turned into an opportunity to discuss the issues rather than for people to get worked up. One of the things I love about SZ above all other online communities.

ProfMonnitoff, if you're referring to 'privilege' in terms of 'I'm privileged to have a roof over my head where some people do not.' or 'I'm privileged to have a meal where some go hungry' or 'I'm privileged to have a certain amount of freedom that others may not have,' then you're right.

But I still think it's absurd to suggest that the members here who buy from designers have disposable means to do so. Many times it's about allocation and management and giving up some items in life to pursue other things. And that's not privilege in my opinion...it's usually the result of spending smarter and (for some) a line of credit.
Certainly privileged people can be common in areas of fashion but I'd hesitate to say that's the norm around these parts.

As Kuugia said, where there is a will, there is a way.

That dude who had 12 different new Julius leathers bought from the same season? That's privilege in my opinion. Not the guy who saves his hard earned money for 8 months to buy one winter coat because he relates to that more than any other designer or coat out there.
That's passion, not privilege.

As the person who brought the 'p-word' up in the thread, I should clarify: the word privilege doesn't have an inherent value statement tied to it. And this was my thinking when I threw the word into the forum. It was meant to be stated as a descriptive fact and not a measure of access to disposable money for discretionary purchases. It's a pretty broad concept whose meaning only becomes clear as we examine the context in which the word is used. I used that particular word, "privilege," not so that I could throw an epithet at *any SZer* but because I think that so long as we spend hours talking about zippers and this season or that, we owe it to ourselves to stand back and think critically and productively about, um, I can't avoid it guys, our relationship with capitalism, consumption, etc. <----and no, none of these have to be necessarily thought of as "bad words" and for you who are feeling defensive, you aren't being judged.

In fact, I think you are all great -- so creative with how you wear things, have great eyes (uh, meaning you have a talent for telling what clothing best conveys something about a/our current collective ethos), and even in how you use these forums.

I have no interest in who has the most expensive jacket. I joined SZ because here I can be the aesthete that I am amongst, the most discerning of aesthetes. There is the possibility for mutual learning there, no? In other words, we can talk about privilege without using "the privileged", as Mr. Bear inaccurately suggests I do, as a way to suggest -- nay, accuse you all -- of being part of the "wealthy elite, squad." That is a ridiculous cause to take up.

I am here because you all inspire me. I like all the photos of what people have found. I love seeing how creative people can be in the way that they incorporate their clothing into their wardrobes.

So, going forward, I propose that we should feel that we can discuss privilege in thoughful, meaningful ways, and certainly not assume that the discussion is being had so that we can create a taxonomy of the SZ user, into which we can slot him/her based on that person's access to money, or whether or not that person wears "authentic" pieces. That would be an utterly meaningless project.

And Sir Bear-a-lot, I appreciate your generosity in promising not to be too harsh to the fresh(wo)man. (And that means I don't have to remove my Rika glasses and step outside either, right? Dope.)

xoxo, MBT

[mizzar]

... Even smaller guys often have to pay the local mafia to be allowed to do their business. In fact, often there is just no way to know what the fuck you are buying, how it was made or where your money will end up. It's like buying drugs, except sometimes you don't even realize it.

So you say it's like paying taxes to government
or buying from h&m? Same thing: you couldn't know who or how produced your colthes, and where your money goes whatsoever.

There are no copyright laws in China so it's not illegal to produce fakes there. You don't have to pay someone to be able to make some fake Lv purse or Ann t-shirt.

Maybe what you were trying to say that you need to pay those shady characters in "civilised" countries to be able to sell knock-offs? I can assure you from my own expirience, you need to pay the same people even if you sell geniune pieces.

In no way i want to say that fakes are ok, i just think that to draw it like some kind of a terrorists, drugdealers and mafia financing institution is like to say that all of your taxes are financing mass massacre in third worlds countries, it's a bit of an overkill. "Every time you pay taxes - your government kills a human"