WTF

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No, my (perceived?) difference has nothing to do with irony. It has more to do with context and meaning - I think just like something not originally campy can become camp, something not originally kitschy can become kitsch. For example, when a million retards go to see Dali and hang his stuff on their walls just because they think it makes them cultured, Dali becomes kitsch. Two things happen here, the meaning of the object is lost and the context changes. Another difference from the "classic" definition of kitsch is that I don't apply it only to art. Any object from which meaning is disassociated can become kitsch - including fashion. Matt, note, this is not the classic definition of kitsch.

good interpretation and explanation

would you say the work of Warhol was created with the intent of 'kitsch' from its conception? He seems to be the best example of someone who (aware or not) knew how to manipulate the worthlessness and malleability of "meaning" in art.

[laika]

No, my (perceived?) difference has nothing to do with irony. It has more to do with context and meaning - I think just like something not originally campy can become camp, something not originally kitschy can become kitsch. For example, when a million retards go to see Dali and hang his stuff on their walls just because they think it makes them cultured, Dali becomes kitsch. Two things happen here, the meaning of the object is lost and the context changes. Another difference from the "classic" definition of kitsch is that I don't apply it only to art. Any object from which meaning is disassociated can become kitsch - including fashion. Matt, note, this is not the classic definition of kitsch.

Kitsch originally basically meant debased art. I believe the term was born in late High Modernism period (I guess 30s, maybe a bit earlier). More on debased art later.

That's interesting. So you would say even the original Dali painting becomes kitsch, and not just the coffee mugs, mouse pads, etc., that make the work infinitely reproducible and contribute to the dissemination of its meaning thereby? It seems like there is some overlap between your definition and what WB says about loss of aura ...although of course, he does not see this as necessarily negative.

btw, the term was born in the mid 19th century and originally referred simply to trashy commercial art--i.e., works that had been created strictly for market appeal. I don't think there is any sense of debasement in the original definition, since this type of "art" was not perceived with any reverence in the first place.

[laika]

going off of this and in response to laika - how is this definition inherently negative? It strikes me as some kind of utopian idealism. The futility and naivety in believing such a thing can be attained is perhaps where I might see it as being not so positive, but still doesn't strike me as necessarily bad.

edit: just re-read Fuuma's post for greater clarity - this seems to be the definition in Kundera's terms. Perhaps this may be one of those postmodern alterations you originally spoke of, laika.

i don't keep kundera on my shelf anymore, but i'm pretty sure he has a very negative view of kitsch, even connecting it to totalitarianism? I think the denial of shit is more akin to turning a blind eye than having a utopian idealist view of the world. The world of kitsch is a very sterile one for him...

[Johnny]

Faust you are always on about kitsch...isn't that ironic?

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i don't keep kundera on my shelf anymore, but i'm pretty sure he has a very negative view of kitsch, even connecting it to totalitarianism? I think the denial of shit is more akin to turning a blind eye than having a utopian idealist view of the world. The world of kitsch is a very sterile one for him...

yeah the way he ended up shaping it definitely made it sound like a tool of totalitarian manipulation. but it seemed like the definition of the concept itself wasn't bad, just the way this concept came to be shaped and used for a certain agenda.

[PrinceOfCats]

So you would say even the original Dali painting becomes kitsch

The point of the whole détournement/recuperation business, all going back to 'Avant Garde and Kitsch' in 1939.

Henry Flynt writes that all serious culture (and all pop culture) is in fact 'corny' (ie kitsch) and morally dubious to boot:

http://www.henryflynt.org/aesthetics/meaning_of_my_music.htm

http://www.henryflynt.org/aesthetics/APchptr10.html

Same site for more...

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cool thx for links PoC, i'll check em when the sun is up

are you still living in your suit these days, you were always a bit dapper like an 18th century Mick Jagger

[PrinceOfCats]

are you still living in your suit these days, you were always a bit dapper like an 18th century Mick Jagger

Unfortunately had to give up my Thom Browne avant la lettre vibe.

These days I'm in standard issue hipster togs like all the kids, Vice Magazine/Gareth Pugh/Blah. It's kind of like what business suits are to people with proper jobs.

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it's alright man, sounds like you went the Benjamin Button route in your wardrobe development. Nothin wrong with that, Nathan at All.

[maldoror]

re: the reappropriation of kitsch, the most outspoken figure I know of is the painter odd nerdrum. he even has a whole section of his website devoted to neo-kitsch theory, find it here

[Fuuma]

Odd Nerdrum discussion on SZ, paging Mass!!

[Faust]

Faust you are always on about kitsch...isn't that ironic?

No, it's not.

[Fuuma]

No, it's not.

I don't think it is but on the other hand you'd probably appreciate these entirely unironic "kitsch" painters with their focus on talent, craftmenship and old masters.

[Faust]

I don't think it is but on the other hand you'd probably appreciate these entirely unironic "kitsch" painters with their focus on talent, craftmenship and old masters.

I definitely appreciate that, yes, but not wholesale. For example I don't appreciate the endless royal portraits and biblical scenes, no matter how masterfully rendered. I appreciate that mastery in Dali very much though (besides all other things). Laika, it's a shitty thing to say, but I do think Dali's work has become kitsch at this point. I am not saying I don't admire the work itself any less, but my feelings towards it are already muddled.

[laika]

Laika, it's a shitty thing to say, but I do think Dali's work has become kitsch at this point. I am not saying I don't admire the work itself any less, but my feelings towards it are already muddled.

Not at all. Maybe what this reveals is that it was always crap in the first place.