Watches

[byhand]

A Swiss product is not categorically a good product. The Swiss are as capable of producing crap as anyone else, and like much of advertising, the lingering cache of Swiss-Made ignores the fact that many once august watch houses are having their cases and more stamped out in Asian sweatshops by folks who don't know a rotor from a balance spring. 50% of the parts making up the movement must be manufactured in Switzerland and assembly must be completed in Switzerland to get the label.

I added to an earlier post - didn't change anything written to alter a previously stated point of view.

I don't have anything against quartz watches, and if keeping accurate time is your main goal when purchasing a watch, well, nothing wrong with that. I can ask a passerby for the time or look at my phone. My interest in watches has nothing to do with knowing what time it is, not to say that I don't want the watch to keep accurate time. It's the how it gets there that interests me.

[endorphinz]

define purists. because where i'm from, a purist only cares about telling time.

yeah & clothes are just about body covering...

i mean i got no dog in this fight but c'mon mannnn

I fail to see the difference between appreciating craftsmanship in watch making and appreciating craftsmanship in sewing. a pair of Levi's does the job... non?

a n y w a y...

ok watch snobs

bought this for an ex in 1980. Think it was the first release of the porsche design watches... blacked out titanium? believe it's made by orfina. i have the padded,red velvet lined leather case somewhere with the original warranty. is it a good piece? needs some repair,should I?

I used to wear it. it's small but so am I ... in fact my Rolex is mid size;not a fan of big clunky watches

[byhand]

This whole "Purists insist on in-house movements" mentality is very recent and such a load of crock.

Can't apologize for respecting a product built from A to Z in house from scratch. Anything else is muddying the waters for me. I don't see the point in paying for a Vacheron without getting 100% Vacheron. Your load of crock is my comfort zone.

Movements pumped out on an assembly line will never do it for me when I know there is a guy destroying his eyesight while pursuing his passion to create something magnificent... even if that assembly line is in Switzerland.

[pregnantbob]

The lines about craftsmanship and are all well and good but you are just wrapping them up in such banal rhetoric...

You still haven't explained why the cheaper movements are somehow not worthy of praise or consideration when they have similar histories to the larger watch makers and you're hiding behind all this waffling on about "muddying waters" and "assembly lines".

Why is a Valjoux 7750 shit compared to a VC 1126? Beyond your subjective opinions in house somehow being better than anything that's not which isn't explained by facts or evidence.

Could you post some of your collection? I would just like to know what time pieces you have for you have to this conclusion.

bought this for an ex in 1980. Think it was the first release of the porsche design watches... blacked out titanium? believe it's made by orfina. i have the padded,red velvet lined leather case somewhere with the original warranty. is it a good piece? needs some repair,should I?

It would more than likely have an ETA movement, the same type of "shit" movement this other guy is talking about. So you might as well throw it in the ocean.

[byhand]

Beyond your subjective opinions in house somehow being better than anything that's not which isn't explained by facts or evidence.

I agree, my point of view is entirely subjective. Mass-manufactured parts may function just as well as parts created otherwise. They don't interest me.

I thought I was preaching to the choir considering where this conversation is taking place. Mass market anything is pretty much repugnant among the company here, and if we travel back to where this conversation started, notice that my first reply was to the creator of this forum who was considering dropping bank on a B&R. The item in question doesn't meet the standards of the man who was considering purchasing it. I thought it kind to inform him that B&R buys a downmarket movement (subjective, I know) and drops it into a case. He can do better with the cash he was going to contribute to the B&R advertising fund.

When shopping for a watch, I want something my heirs will be proud to own and not something destined for a landfill. I like when science meets artistry. They are better together than either standing alone.

By the way, I have not written that mass-produced movements are shit as suggested by your quotation marks, although you appear to want me to write that, so I will oblige. Mass-produced movements are shit.

A quick look at my username may alert you to the fact that my stance here is steadfast, although I will give you the win for pointing out that it is subjective. I'm okay with that.

[Chinorlz]

Byhand, your contributions to this thread are really interesting... I know very little about the artistry and the back-end work that goes into the construction of timepieces. Like others on here I can appreciate the aesthetics of a well designed timepiece at face value, but its nice to know when internals, movement etc. have also been elevated to another level.

I'd love to hear more about some of the timepiece companies and more of those that do construct their inner mechanics in-house versus those that get them from another company.

The parallels are of course easy to make not only to clothing (MA+ etc. doing their construction of garments in-house versus a factory commissioned to make larger volumes for Prada) but to cars too as Ferrari casts their engine blocks on-site versus say the Toyota engine used in the Lotus Evora.

I've always thought about getting a simple and straightforward stainless steel Rolex from the 60s or 70s. Any particular reason as to why it would not be an ideal watch that would last a lifetime?

[Faust]

Pregnantbob, I think you are getting worked up for the wrong reason. I am sure what byhand is trying to get across is that one should get their money's worth and know what it is exactly they are buying when making a purchase, whatever that may be, and in his opinion it's not a good value to drop a $4-$5k on a watch that has an assembly line movement.

I don't have a good clothing analogy (same polo shirt, different logo?), but, for example, all audiophiles know that Bose is inferior value for money because they use the same parts as, say, Apex (true story, they use the same processors).

[kunk75]

by that logic anything we buy here save for a few hand crafted or bench made items is a poor investment. I don't for a second believe both Olmar and Mirta took a ship to moldova to sew shit for me. IMO, the value of something is it's individual value to the owner.

[byhand]

I've always thought about getting a simple and straightforward stainless steel Rolex from the 60s or 70s. Any particular reason as to why it would not be an ideal watch that would last a lifetime?

No, a classic Rolex can be a fine purchase. Many of the best watchmakers on the planet wear a Rolex even when they work for other brands, but only opt for a watch predating the early '80s. Rolex went into a coma in the early '80s and hasn't contributed anything horologically significant since. I wouldn't buy a Rolex if I could only own one watch, but I won't discourage you. The watchmakers wearing a Rolex (every last one of them) would spring for a Phillipe Dufour if they could afford it.

Dufour worked for one of my favorites, Audemars Piguet, before doing his own thing. He works independently. I think he has one assistant and produces swoon-worthy watches. He is probably too obsessed with doing everything himself, and it is precisely this obsession that you want in a watchmaker.

Even Audemars does things that irritate me. Their line of watches that shall not be named, pumped by movie stars and sports figures, is a glitch in an otherwise mostly stellar body of work. The market wants big timepieces for some misguided reason. I'm sure it has something to do with BigGulps,supersized meals, Humvees and McMansions. Mass hysteria.

Audemars is getting too motivated to expand the customer base, but I'll hang on to see if they snap out of it. They are still a house allowing a single craftsperson to work on a watch from start to finish, and half a year later (for the more complex pieces) it is available to deliver to a customer. I'd rather go with independent makers like Dufour, but this would mean languishing on a waiting list for years and also dealing with serious sticker shock that is frankly beyond my means.

The most basic (not the best word to use for a watch that horophiles describe as making Patek look like grade school stuff) work Dufour has produced sold at auction recently for about 450K, which was more than twice the estimate. Collectors know that he is the real deal, and it is apparent that they will pay anything to own a piece he has created. He may be the first in what becomes a new dynasty. His daughter is now working in the industry. The majority of his watches are in Japan. They are mad for his work and got on the waiting list early. I've heard that some on the list had to wait six years to get a watch.

Dufour has suggested that Patek cuts corners, and there is definitely bad blood between him and Audemars. I'm sure it has to do with the general devotion to a healthy bottom line that exists in any company that wants to stay in business, hence the actors and sportsmen. On the upside, he has often said that the Lange & Sohne Datograph is perfection.

[the breaks]

by that logic anything we buy here save for a few hand crafted or bench made items is a poor investment. I don't for a second believe both Olmar and Mirta took a ship to moldova to sew shit for me. IMO, the value of something is it's individual value to the owner.

At the end of they day it boils down to whether you feel cheated once you have all the facts. If I found out that my 4000 dollar watch was assembled in 10 minutes I'd feel cheated, not matter how good it looks. If someone else is still happy with the purchase after that then who is anyone to argue.

[MaxM]

Well Audemars and Hublot are now getting lots of attention from rappers so that alone kills it for me

I'm not an expert, but i always love when i see extreme attention to details. I am however really curious what u (byhand) think of non-traditional watchmakers like MB&F for example. The LM2 especially is absolutely stunning, but i would really love to hear what you would have to say considering you are more able to judge the technical aspects.

As for the watch/car comparison, i dont think a Ferrari would do justice there, more like a Pagani Huayra. There is a documentary on YouTube where they explain how every part of the car is made in-house, its really fucking incredible, gold anodized suspension arms and all. So in the end a million seems justified vs 250k for a ferrari or a phantom. To me its the same deal for these watches.

[MaxM]

Btw, no skeleton watch lovers in this thread?

[djt00]

I have the Khaki Field Automatic, one of the military style watches from Hamilton. Swiss Made, ETA 2824-2 movement. Good simple watch at a fair price.

[Faust]

by that logic anything we buy here save for a few hand crafted or bench made items is a poor investment. I don't for a second believe both Olmar and Mirta took a ship to moldova to sew shit for me. IMO, the value of something is it's individual value to the owner.

I think we have long agreed that RO is not a paragon of quality.

[Chinorlz]

I've always thought about getting a simple and straightforward stainless steel Rolex from the 60s or 70s. Any particular reason as to why it would not be an ideal watch that would last a lifetime?

No, a classic Rolex can be a fine purchase. Many of the best watchmakers on the planet wear a Rolex even when they work for other brands, but only opt for a watch predating the early '80s. Rolex went into a coma in the early '80s and hasn't contributed anything horologically significant since. I wouldn't buy a Rolex if I could only own one watch, but I won't discourage you. The watchmakers wearing a Rolex (every last one of them) would spring for a Phillipe Dufour if they could afford it.

Dufour worked for one of my favorites, Audemars Piguet, before doing his own thing. He works independently. I think he has one assistant and produces swoon-worthy watches. He is probably too obsessed with doing everything himself, and it is precisely this obsession that you want in a watchmaker.

Fascinating stuff. I read about Dufour and his watches online and even for someone not "horologically educated" as it were, the photos and macro-lens shots of the casing, internals etc. were mindblowing.

What was the MSRP of the original Simplicity series? I couldn't seem to find that price, just the auction prices for some of the more complex pieces that he has done.

Half a million for a timepiece is something I'll likely never be able to (or could bring myself to) throw down, but I can appreciate next level craftsmanship and detail like any other.

Regarding Hublot, they certainly are gaining momentum. I remember a few years ago when images of the Bat Bang and Big Bang were posted on here from some OGs (you know who you are ) and it was not a super mainstream brand. Fast forward to 2013 and two weeks ago when I was forced to visit the Houston Galleria mall, there is now a dedicated Hublot shop being built.