Your recent purchases

[Venus in Furs]

"quality" strikes me as a very vague and superficial term much like "authenticity". what i think most of the individuals on this forum find important and gravitate toward is "concept". presumably the prices are based on the amount of research and development and in some cases hand work that it takes to realize a certain item. while a pair of red wings will likely outlast a ccp dripped trainer - which is all but deliberately designed to degrade at an accelerated rate - it is obvious why many would choose the latter even at a significantly higher price point.

Sorry, but 'concept', 'research', and 'development' doesn't cut it for me either, considering Nike Flyknits are, in my opinion, far superior to a malevolent-looking Allstar dipped in rubber in all these respects.

At a stretch, you could say that, with designers like Carol, you're paying for their concepts and research combined with the obvious logistical costs of producing in small quantities with a small team. But this argument doesn't hold up so well with the fashion labels like Rick.

Ultimately, you're paying the price they've put on their ideas. Fine, I don't have a problem with that. I just don't think people should delude themselves into thinking it's a justifiable reflection of quality, or even research and development.

[zamb]

I cannot speak for much other brands as I only wear Carpe and CCP
only because I like a specific kind of footwear and everything else is usually off in some kind of way. Carpe and CCP classic style shoes/ boots are similar to the kind of shoes I would design if i were to ever design/ make shoes

I like really classic and simple things that are structured and durable and does not require any kind of special care.
The look of the item for me is more important than its durability........that being said, the item MUST be durable. I could never buy Burberry, Ferragamo or something of the like because I like to look and feel of a shoe that is definately made by hand rather than a really refined high quality mass produced shoe. I like imperfection, the feeling of "Humanity" made into the product

I have CCP side zips that I am wearing like 3-4 times per week for the last two years and other than Vibraming them twice I have not had to do anything else.
Ive had Carpes and they are pretty much indestructible. as long as you take care of the sole

I guess my biggest issue with shoes/ boots by these designers is simply an issue of comfort. many of them at times are not comfortable, and anything i wear a couple of times and realize is not comfortable goes on sale...........

Zam, since you wear mainly this upper echelon of footwear, do those shoes last that long?

In this day and age how can this price point / quality be justified? Just curious. I'm trying to open up this can of worms because personally I've been toying with the possibility of saving more and potentially making the leap...

I know that if I spend $1k or so on a Harnden blazer that It'll last me through the apocalypse. Rick leather from previous seasons as well as other items could fall into place here. For me there is a price point when the feeling of paying for quality and durability is eclipsed by inflated name brand egotism...

[lowrey]

Sorry, but 'concept', 'research', and 'development' doesn't cut it for me either, considering Nike Flyknits are, in my opinion, far superior to a malevolent-looking Allstar dipped in rubber in all these respects.

well, they are also running shoes so I'm not sure if there is any point in comparing the two... But either way, I wouldn't dismiss the entire idea of research when it comes to designers like CCP, they still use unconventional materials and methods (compared to for example someone making traditional shoes) even if its not the most technical research and development.

Ultimately, you're paying the price they've put on their ideas. Fine, I don't have a problem with that.

I would imagine this is kind of what AKA was referring to with "concept"?

[fncyths]

I like to look and feel of a shoe that is definately made by hand rather than a really refined high quality mass produced shoe. I like imperfection, the feeling of "Humanity" made into the product

Well said friend. That's what I was looking for!


I do love my Burberry brogues though, they'll look killer with your new asymetric slim trousers

[zamb]

Zam... I think the problem with your elaboration is that it positions quality as something largely antithetical to the aesthetic.

Regarding the larger issue, I don't see much point in trying to connect or justify price by quality, aesthetic, material, label, etc. Price is artificial, driven by the market more than anything tangible.

thanks for the reply
but not exactly..................I am simply saying that sometimes quality can be compromised, or taken down a notch for the sake of achieving a certain look (aesthetic)

I certainly dont think a Julius shredded hem T-shirt should last as long as a high quality non distressed tee, however since the intended effect was to achieve a shredded hem, this factors into me expecting a shorter lifespan (diminished quality) of the item

[zamb]

on the subject of research, it is difficult to compare companies who are makers of performance type products to artisanal designers who are making items for the sake of conceptual design and stylistic appeal.

Nike may want to make a lighter running shoe, that breathes well and puts less stress on the feet of the runner.That is one kind of research.

Carol may want to make a drip sneaker and require research as to what is the best kind of rubber/ latex is best combined with Kangaroo leather, and effectively does not crack when worn..........

research is equally important in both, albeit in a different kind of way

[francojean23]

Zam... good point regarding Julius. In that sense, I think, quality is actually rejected as part of the aesthetic. In other words, I don't know if Julius is trying to make a shredded shirt that can last as long as possible, so much as, reveling in the rapid degradation of a shirt - starting the process themselves through an aesthetic move.

[Faust]

well, they are also running shoes so I'm not sure if there is any point in comparing the two... But either way, I wouldn't dismiss the entire idea of research when it comes to designers like CCP, they still use unconventional materials and methods (and combination of the two) even if its not the most technical research and development.

Exactly, in this case the concepts are totally different. Not knocking Nike or any sportswear (I am constantly impressed by the amount of technical innovation and construction of snow gear myself ), it's just different animals.

I would say that CCP is the prime example here. I don't think that people who are not fairly familiar with construction techniques understand how fucking mindblowing the patterns on the dead end items are. Oh, and they also must result in significant fabric waste, unfortunately (and the customer pays for that too).

[Faust]

Well said friend. That's what I was looking for!

I have worn my CDiem workboots for five years, 4-7 times a week and apart from the leather cracking (in a very nice way I might add), there were absolutely no problems with them (plus my cobbler stretched the shit out of them, putting additional stress on construction).

I do think that durability is a sign of quality though. I understand what Venus is saying - I wouldn't want my expensive items falling apart. And, btw, don't look for longevity in Paul Harnden either.

[Venus in Furs]

well, they are also ugly running shoes so I'm not sure if there is any point in comparing the two...

Whatever man, I appreciate good product and from a design and construction point, Flyknits are impressive. And besides, I've seen them look better with street gear than a lot of what gets posted in WAYWT. seenmy's fits with nike's have been infinitely more interesting than the same old getup with Rick Dunks. But anyway, what does it matter, you're talking research and development, I'm saying there's more research and development that go into other products which don't have the same price tag attached.

Don't get me wrong, in some cases I think it's justified. For me, Carol still cuts the best suit, for which i can't find an alternative. And given other products on the market, where, at times, you're paying almost $2k for something that's made in Bulgaria and doesn't have functioning cuffs, I think Carol's suits are worth it.

But lets face it, a lot of the time, we're talking about things that aren't particularly groundbreaking— pretty straight up gear deriving from workwear, military wear— variations of combat boots, jeans, whatever, this shit should last. I guess I'm just frustrated because I've owned gear by American workwear and Japanese denim brands before, and in terms of durability, there's no comparison [or in cases they're comparable quality wise but grossly out of whack in terms of pricing]. And for me, it's inexcusable that a pair of Rick or Ann combat boots, for example, don't even last as long as a pair of Asian made Docs. If you're going to do something, do it right. But I guess that's just fashion, it's only about how shit looks, regardless of how ephemeral.

I would imagine this is kind of what AKA was referring to with "concept"?

so the concept's exclusivity through high pricing?

[kunk75]

Only here are $650 church's not hefty price wise.

This resonates with me as well. Red Wing, Frye, Docs, Church's, Chucks, Ferragamo etc. all amazing shoes. No hefty price point. There's no fucking way I could ever justify spending more than $1k on a pair of shoes. Hell, my hand made Burberry Prorsum brogues weren't even near that.

I definitely appreciate the quality of Guidi leather. And their boots for sure have perked my attention, but curious to know if their leathers hold up well when weighed against previous mentioned brands...

[lowrey]

And, btw, don't look for longevity in Paul Harnden either.

Right, or any items made of delicate and fine fabrics for that matter, they won't last a lifetime. It has been discussed countless times with Rick tees for example, which are very delicate and will probably break quicker than a $15 tee from Gap. Longetivity is not the key quality in them even if they cost 20x a cheap t-shirt.

That said, of course there are better examples, some of PH's heavier and coarse wools for example feel very durable, I can imagine my "heavy-ass wool" blazer easily lasting 10+ years whereas my cotton blazer has ripped in the back seam after a few years, even though it has been one of my most used jackets. I have repaired it though and can imagine it lasting for many more years, but its still obviously more delicate.

In the end its up to everyone's own justification to decide what they are paying for. I imagine most people look for a middle ground of the "concept" mentioned (the idea, execution, aesthetical value) and usability (durability, comfort etc).

[kunk75]

I would say ccp is the exemption but lets not fool ourselves into thinking that paying the prices we do does anything but fuel the escalating prices. Glued soles are not a vision nor driven by research.

I ask not dickishly but out of ignorance. Have harndens prices changed as he has gained popularity (relative to the niche to whom his name means anything)?

[lowrey]

Whatever man, I appreciate good product and from a design and construction point, Flyknits are impressive. And besides, I've seen them look better with street gear than a lot of what gets posted in WAYWT. seenmy's fits with nike's have been infinitely more interesting than the same old getup with Rick Dunks. But anyway, what does it matter, you're talking research and development, I'm saying there's more research and development that go into other products which don't have the same price tag attached.

I just meant that its an extremely different product, probably as far as you can go while still talking about the same category (footwear), and I just don't think there is anything comparable between the two makers or the two products, like Faust also mentioned in his reply.

But lets face it, a lot of the time, we're talking about things that aren't particularly groundbreaking— pretty straight up gear deriving from workwear, military wear— variations of combat boots, jeans, whatever, this shit should last.

in a way, yes, but if you really think about Carol's jeans for example, there is a lot to them. They are "just" jeans but there is nothing ordinary about the pattern or the contstruction, for example. This, I imagine, is what appeals to many people with his work, his clothes are based on something ordinary (like you said; suits, jeans, shirts, shoes) but there is a lot more to them, and that is at least what I find fascinating in the work.

Of course, the downside to some of this is the durability, we've all heard the stories of something breaking, and this is typically because of the same reasons I described above - unusual materials (paper fabrics), contruction methods (invisi-seams), treatments (dyeing, heavy washing) etc. So I think that in many ways its the same reasons for which many love his work that also make it "hazardous". I can definitely understand why someone would want to steer clear because of this. For me, it means that I'm just selective, I don't own anything with invisible seams or super delicate fabrics (I made that error once with the paper fabric) because I want a bit more durability. But I'm also giving up some of it for the concept and design. For example the jeans won't last as long as some high quality japanese jeans, but to me they are interesting enough to own, but still very wearable. That is the middle ground in his work that at least I look for.

[fncyths]

Totally. I bought a very heavy boiled wool PH blazer off of a buddy of mine a few years back and it seems to just get better over time. I don't wear it like something precious though, I live in it, and through it's wear and tear I appreciate it's craftsmanship more and more.

That said, of course there are better examples, some of PH's heavier and coarse wools for example feel very durable, I can imagine my "heavy-ass wool" blazer easily lasting 10+ years whereas my cotton blazer has ripped in the back seam after a few years, even though it has been one of my most used jackets. I have repaired it though and can imagine it lasting for many more years, but its still obviously more delicate.

In the end its up to everyone's own justification to decide what they are paying for. I imagine most people look for a middle ground of the "concept" mentioned (the idea, execution, aesthetical value) and usability (durability, comfort etc).