The pricing is crazy/justified thread

[Clopek]

I've read a lot of this thread while at work today, and it goes in a lot of very different directions (economies of scale, supply/demand, creating exclusive brands/a false feeling of exclusivity, quality and costs associated with materials and labour, etc). I haven't read every argument, but I started thinking on this when I was researching David Foster Wallace's approach to writing a novel.

The guy literally spent months and months doing nothing but researching something he is interested in before even touching pen to paper. For Pale King, he read tax manuals, interviewed auditors, took classes on accounting, etc. I imagine that he was paid by his publisher to do this research, and was paid for the years approaching the (ultimately posthumous) release of the novel. I have to imagine the same process is undertaken by a lot of designers, albeit on a much shorter timeline.

One of my favourite seasons of any menswear line was Geller's f/w 08, which drew a lot of inspiration from pre-unification Prussia. It might be kept in mind that, before a designer embarks on a season, he or she might spend a few months not producing anything at all, but instead flying around the world, visiting museums, reading through history books, researching old trends, new materials, forgotten ways of making clothing...

I don't work in the industry, but I have to imagine that this "down time" between seasons must have a significant impact on the final price of some garments, as it must be absorbed by the designers financial backing. Let's not forget that, even if a designer is an artist that should be more interested in the final product than the profit, those who allow a designer to design aren't going to be so altruistic.

[Clopek]

aka fashion r and d

[Faust]

And if I told you that plenty of collections are ripped off of old magazines and are hastily put together weeks before the show...

[kunk75]

would be a better idea if most local stores weren't rapists

[swami]

LOL , I guess it would only make sense that the local stores (specially in the US with their rape prices ) get priced out as demand & thus competition increases!

You can typically save 30% off Us store prices purchasing in the EU even after paying duties. Eventually someone with muscle gets mad for getting a smaller piece of the pie and ends up flexing that muscle.

[philip nod]

ccp now officially a controlled substance

too good

[Peasant]

It's their store..they can run it how they wish. Competition is always good and definitely needed when it comes to certain designers. A lot of you may not know the mark-ups on some of these goods and I certainly don't know the details.. but it can be a lot. A fucking lot.

[gavagai]

I think it is fine if a business controls the flow of their goods. It isn't abnormal for these businesses to not allow the sale of their goods to territories where there is another retailer.

There is something to be said for a retailer who provides a brick and morter store where you can actually see and feel and try on the garments. I'm willing to pay extra for that.

In the apparel industry this kind of sucks as some stores may have small buy or not buy the items you are interested in. And of course, prices are very different depending on country, taxes etc.

[Faust]

The only reasons some stores can get away with dictating to designers is that the designers we love are pretty small. But as SZ grows, so does these designers' customer base, so do the designers, and then they stop caring what the stores want. It's nothing to worry about. Poell is an anomaly because he has a clear purpose to control the amount of goods in order to make them more desirable, but he remains an anomaly.

And, honestly, who gives a fuck. If you can't afford a Poell jacket, will your life end tomorrow? I find these petty squabbles off-putting, not to mention it's the surest way to alienate customers (it's not like we don't know who these stores are ).

[marc1975]

This is quite an interesting thread. Although I've been in London a couple of times for business reasons, I visited London two weeks ago for the first time for going shopping and sightseeing (as well as business), and was shocked to see the price of some designer items, as well as the quality. Some items weren't even neatened / serged, so you could see single threads hanging down a 400 GBP shirt. First thing I would probably do is take my sewing machine and put a nice seam on such a shirt...

Since I started sewing myself (as a hobby), I started looking differently at clothing in general. If I look at a "designer" item, it either has to be a top-notch quality (e.g. a "classic" item like a trench from Burberry), or it has to be a certain shape/cut/material that is simply amazing and hard to replicate. If one of these two prerequisites is met, I am quite willing to spend my money. But there are also things where I just cannot justify the price...

I looked at a wool/nylon trouser from Gareth Pugh, with a tag on it of 1,000 Euro. The legs were split and cut a little wider, a pattern that I could easily replicate at home. Interesting idea, but is the idea alone worth paying that much for?

Looking at this thread, I came up with a question that I find quite interesting:
Imagine that you had the ability to sew your own clothing without much of a difficulty, i.e. you would be able to create patterns, get the fabric you want and sew the stuff together in a quality that is equal to the things you can buy, without having to invest much time (it's a hypothetical question, sewing takes time).
Would you sew some of the things you have seen from designers (and found them too expensive) because you liked the shape/material, and how would you feel about it? Would it feel to be "LESS" worth than the original for you, even if you made it yourself?

How do you feel about someone copying designer items (not in a mass-production sense, but when sewing one item for oneself)?

[eat me]

marc1975, I sew and cut, and not as a hobby, and I wouldn't re-create something for myself based on something I liked but couldn't buy. I'd rather save up and respect the designer, or forget about it. I would, however, do it for someone else, just to practice my technical skills.

In terms of buying, I have the following rules - if I can't make the thing in an hour, it's worth buying. That's why I don't buy t-shirts.

[Faust]

Depends on what you are shooting for, Marc. If you just want to replicate something, ok. But if you really respect the designer, how silly would you feel if someone asked you if it's a Rick jacket you are wearing and you say, no, it's a knock-off I made. Maybe it would be more fun to not recreate it fully but to change some details to make it your own?

[marc1975]

Depends on what you are shooting for, Marc. If you just want to replicate something, ok. But if you really respect the designer, how silly would you feel if someone asked you if it's a Rick jacket you are wearing and you say, no, it's a knock-off I made. Maybe it would be more fun to not recreate it fully but to change some details to make it your own?

Well, there are a couple of aspects here, I guess.

- Originality of design
Some of the designs I see are not as genuine as some may think. I've seen "wide pants" (with straight cut, wide legs) that are made of linen in women's wear for years, and I've tried to find such a style in men's wear quite for some time. Nada. Then some designer takes this design, adapts a pattern for menswear and sells these trousers for 500 Euros. I've sewn these type of pants even before I knew those designers even existed. So I don't really see these as a knockoff, even if they look the same...

- Size
I know that I tend to like the cuts and fabrics of some womenswear items more than mens. Although many of these might be considered "unisex", the women's items are available in sizes that are way too small to fit me (maybe ten years ago )...
If I respectfully contact the designer's sales team whether they would be able to produce something in my size (IT 50), and they decline, I think that leaves me no choice if I absolutely want to have something.
Changing details then would be changing the original design, which was what I liked in the first place...

- Challenge
Sometimes I wonder whether I would be able to sew something like this. As I've stated in another thread, I am currently working on some chiffon pants, which are the most challenging thing I've ever done (at least it feels this way currently). Multiple layers of flowing fabric that is constantly moving, transparency (so you have to work flawless outside and inside, as everything is visible), and quite thin fabric. If I complete something as difficult as this, I don't know whether I would be ashamed that I "copied" a design, or proud because I mastered it...

- Indifference
Probably everyone reading this forum will be able to distinguish a Rick Owens design from a Gareth Pugh one, or other designers. Believe it or not, most people I know don't even know these designers.
Colleague of mine: "Gosh, you did spend 900 Euro on a blazer?"
Me: "Yeah, but it has a special cut, looks really nice!"
Colleague: "Who made it?"
Me: "It's by Devoa, the designer is Daisuke Nishida."
Colleague: ?

... so most people won't even notice that you are wearing a certain designer, as they simply don't care.


Anyway... don't get me wrong. I am not sitting here day in, day out, copying designer items. 90% of the stuff I made so far uses a basic pattern that I tweak so much that you won't be able to see the original design anymore, and none of the items were based on "designers".
I also do respect the designer's work, so if I adore something very much (and it is available in my size), I buy it.
Still, for those cases where it's either not available anymore (earlier seasons) or not available in my size, I am considering sewing it myself...

Cheers,
Marc

[Pumpfish]

At the typical SZ designer price point, it is market back, rather than cost forward which determines pricing. (Price is set by what the market will tolerate rather than what it cost to produce a garment).

What is interesting is does the structure of the market, in particular the relative shortage of retailers in this niche, mean margins are much higher than usual?

I'd be interested in any retailers views?

[Classique]

My tone is, off the devil's advocate; But, that is not my purpose. Unfortunately, this has been my: Personal, perpetual dilemma...

Excuse me, but how is the "Balmian" ripped t-shirt design ANY different from the Ann Demeulemeester 'Sid' t-shirt on the Darkland.com website, right now? The tattered Julius tank top, was acclaimed by a serious number of members too; If, I remember correctly.

Why is Rick Owens ' or CCP' revolutionary-derelict aesthetic, embraced then?

The only thread I may have hung by (pun intended) was the artistic value; But, now members are arguing the clothes have no artistic intentions either?

All that effort, just to be the: Somber, intellectually realized outsider; via garments. The paradox of the anti-fashion - 'Fashionista.' Who hates capitalism so much; Ironically, spends as much cash as the faux fashion victim.

Any way,

Modern artists, do not eat beans off a tin can, homeless; On principal alone. That is an exaggerated, romantic notion. Artists have and do get by, with reasonable donations for their efforts.

Great masterpieces from the: Medieval to modern era were commissioned within reasonable funds. And, no truly great artist has died; From lack of luxuries.

The exploitation of the artist, is the problem. Via compromising artistic integrity for commercial success; Or hijacking, humble and reasonable expectations by a third party.

The composer, Paul Hindemith dominantly questioned artists responsibilities to popular culture; Detached from artistic egotism or elitism. We should educate the oblivious, as oppose to oppress or blame uncontrollable factors...