The pricing is crazy/justified thread

[zamb]

No, I'm not saying that zamb at all. Of course every business has overheads that need to be covered. What I'm examining is the point where by an item is priced.

Firstly, I respect your opinion, because anyone that takes nothing and makes something, understands the point where the something then needs be priced and the conflict that that brings.
With art, where by you have worked on it yourself and it is totally unique and more than one person wants it, the price is not fixed by you.

But for something that is faximilaied, you the maker need to fix the price. You add up production costs ( material, wages, overheads) and you wind up with a number. Here comes the hard part. What value do I put on my own work. What drives this decision?
Is it marketing? Is it brand? Is it the need to accumulate personal wealth? If it is personal wealth, then why do you need to accumulate it?

For a true designer, the creation of the object ( be it seeing your shoe finally made ) is all that should matter.
Thats why I have a problem with putting a 3000 price tag on a pair of shoes. It shows the values the designer holds.

you could argue it that way but thus argument has a lot of holes in it man.
personally, I dont think anything that I make would ever reach the prices of many of these designers. not because I have any problems with these prices but because of a philosophical position that I hold. I also dont think you can say that expensive pricing is reflective of a persons values.................
I have always appreciated well designed, well made stuff but couldn't afford them, (well except for a few years when I had this big paycheck job)
As a person that made clothes I always knew it was possible to create great stuff within a small business with a specific type of setup and not have it cost that much, so in a way my work is about providing a well designed product, in limited quantities for a person who is not exceptionally wealthy.
However, there ARE people who are wealthy, or are at least willing to pay for big ticket items at the expense of purchasing something else, personally, I have no beef with that. There are different products for different people with the same basic needs.
I drive a Toyota Camry, that's what I can afford, my brother has a 750 BMW. I cant afford that, but I'm not mad at him for owning one, nor do I think a car shouldn't cost 80 grand..........
I dont own any shoes that cost more than $500, but if someone has 3K and wants to spend it on a pair of shoes, fine by me.........

[endorphinz]

the old adage:

"if you have to ask how much something costs, you can't afford it"

the labels being discussed are not meant for "ordinary folk". they're meant for people who can afford to drop 20k easier than those who scrape together a couple hundred bucks to go shopping.

i don't pretend to know the financial situation of the members of this board but i hope those dropping 3k on shoes and 5k on leather jackets lead a complete lifestyle commensurate with their sartorial choices;and, if not, i hope the sacrifice is worth it.

however, as previously stated, if it makes you happy, and makes you feel good, and you can find ways to pay your bills, consume till ya drop.

[pierce]

Zamb, thanks for sharing that.

I do think that over pricing items is a cynical move, the motives for which only the designer him/herself knows and needs to square up with their creativity. I don't mind if people still buy them, but its not for me. Because its clothes and something very personal, I need to feel a connection with the designer. If the motives are not 100% then I'm not convinced.

[Torchiere]

and i realize that the price for items are done so theres wholesale..then a markup from that from the retailer that is selling it..etc etc.. but i *secretly would like to think* that retailers know most people will not buy it at full price, but will be lured in by the word 'sale' and while some may pay retail, most will wait and pounce on it when it gets marked down. of course ideally, businesses would love for people to pay retail always

This is true. These days people are always looking for a "good deal" so (most) of them wait till the sale season to make their purchases. They think they're getting a good deal since it's 60% off or whatever. But in fact most consumers don't know the true monetary value of the items they buy, so that items they just bought might actually only cost the retailer a fraction of the sale price.

Retailers know this and can use it to their advantage. They can mark up the retail price so when it goes on sale, they will still profit from it. If the rich dudes buy at retail, then good for them, but if they don't, they can put them on sale to attract more buyers while still make a profit.

Of course there will be a threshold, say a $50k whale penis leather jacket gets discounted to say $15k, even with potential saving of $35k, a lot of them will still be unable to afford it or cannot justify the price. The trick then is to experiment with that threshold.

This is a very simplified scenario so you would have to factor in competition and consider the statistics of buyers at retail, buyers at discount, etc and do the math.

The consumers may actually have started this trend of deal-hunting but lost the game while suppliers exploit it.

[pierce]

The world is a funny place :)

Don't think I have ever bought anything in a sale, I always like it in the shop and buy it then.

[Sombre]

This is true. These days people are always looking for a "good deal" so (most) of them wait till the sale season to make their purchases. They think they're getting a good deal since it's 60% off or whatever. But in fact most consumers don't know the true monetary value of the items they buy, so that items they just bought might actually only cost the retailer a fraction of the sale price.

Retailers know this and can use it to their advantage. They can mark up the retail price so when it goes on sale, they will still profit from it. If the rich dudes buy at retail, then good for them, but if they don't, they can put them on sale to attract more buyers while still make a profit.

Of course there will be a threshold, say a $50k whale penis leather jacket gets discounted to say $15k, even with potential saving of $35k, a lot of them will still be unable to afford it or cannot justify the price. The trick then is to experiment with that threshold.

This is a very simplified scenario so you would have to factor in competition and consider the statistics of buyers at retail, buyers at discount, etc and do the math.

The consumers may actually have started this trend of deal-hunting but lost the game while suppliers exploit it.

It sounds like you're toying with the idea of a cartel here. I think Hobo said in one of the threads a couple of months ago that stores that sell these designers watch each other pretty carefully. Now, especially with the internet, it's easy to see what stores are charging in comparison to their competitors.

Retailers aren't the only ones who do this; customers do it everyday ("The Archive has the Samurai coat for 25% off; it's still full price at RO NY"). If one store marks an item up, the store will be selling it for far more than its competitors and will not sell that particular piece. For all these small stores to do that, they would have to collaborate with each other and basically all agree to do that. Then you think about game theory (you can probably tell I don't study Economics; I just know very basic principles, and not even very well, so pardon if there are holes).

In short I don't think these small stores have the ability to do that or would take such a large risk. Unlike a department store, one or two bad seasons of sales could kill a boutique.

[theetruscan]

Oh and bespoke shoes start at around 3K and can command a much higher price so a variety of people do buy 3K+ shoes.

A good pair of lobb oxford boots still runs 3500 pounds + trees.

[Torchiere]

In short I don't think these small stores have the ability to do that or would take such a large risk. Unlike a department store, one or two bad seasons of sales could kill a boutique.

I agree, big stores definitely have an easier time doing it. I'm just saying that in general, this can be done in theory. But then with the internet, you can do a price check on an item half the globe away, so it's getting more difficult too.

[pierce]

A what about Rick Owens leather jackets. There never seems to be the same jacket for sale antoneli or luisaviaroma and the corner. I know rick owens restricts who can sell his clothes in a certain city, almost like car dealerships, but would a similar thing be happening online, where by one online store agrees not to carry the same items as another?

[H-R]

pierce, I understand what you say. Personally, I do not think CCP's suit is worth the charged price, and I have been here for two years, so far I cant recall anybody who wears CCP suit extremely well in the wywt thread too.

I like CCP's leather goods though, especially the footwears. I have a pair of CCP boots from 07FW. I love them. The leather is just unbelievably thick, and they soften down as they got more worn.

I want to say one of the reasons why people want to buy CCP and MA+ even though they are charging very high prices, is that there is a big second hand market behind them. And the second hand price is still very high. Like me, I paid around $1800USD for the CCP boots 2 years ago, I wear them almost everyday. I believe they would get sold at least $1200USD now if I put them in the market. At least that was one of the reasons convinced me to buy a pair of boots with such a high price.

This situation reminds me of that in women's world, they like to buy LV hand bags. If you ask them why you spend tons of money on LV hand bags, they would say because everyone has one, and when you are tired of the bags, you can sell them to recover most of the money you spent on them. Then you move on to buy a new LV hand bag.

I kinda agree with the point on the second hand market. I think this also to some extent explains why brands like Comme, YY aren't as well loved as CCP or MA+ here, because if you put them up on the market you stand to lose up to 70% of your initial 'investment' which is generally not the case with CCP items. But then again, one could certainly in turn raise the question as to why the second hand prices remain high for these items, and I think this will go back to the initial supply/demand proposition...

[pierce]

A what about Rick Owens leather jackets. There never seems to be the same jacket for sale antoneli or luisaviaroma and the corner. I know rick owens restricts who can sell his clothes in a certain city, almost like car dealerships, but would a similar thing be happening online, where by one online store agrees not to carry the same items as another?

Actually scrap that question, I don't have the time or inclination to start thinking about it. Same goes for the ma+ and cpp being more popular because of the second hand market. Ignorance is bliss :)

[interest1]

the old adage:"if you have to ask how much something costs, you can't afford it" ...the labels being discussed are not meant for "ordinary folk" blah blah blah...

Aah, and another sweeping generalization from an outsider looking in. You have little clue what actually goes down so you're left to go off assumptions and adages–neither of which make you sound as bright as you probably are.

endorphinz, there is something called a middle ground. A lot of people I know, including many of the people on this forum, are able to own these labels based on 2 major factors: 1. they're not making frequent expenditures on lower to mid-range brands like Diesel, A&F, Kenneth Cole, etc (like the vast majority of people do, both male and female). Instead, they'll pool their cash for a while until they can drop it on one great piece–that will likely stay in their possession for a lot longer than anything found at the mall. It's a matter of having one stellar blazer/coat/boot whatever, over 3-4 that add up to the same amount in cost, but never character.

And 2. you're making the assumption that everything is acquired for full retail price, which is the case maybe half the time, if that. When people aren't making bank, they still find ways to get things they want. Between online auctions like eBay, SZ & SuFu classifieds (let one thing go, acquire another) store sales, etc, they're kopping their shit at a price that they're able to swing, even if it means letting the electric bill double over. Full retail purchases often go on credit cards, get paid down, then get jacked back up. If they work in the industry, they get discounts deep enough to make you cry, or they receive gratis. Though there are plenty of exceptions, if you were to peer into a many of their closets, you'd find that they're half as full as you might expect–though when you did the math, your mind would be blown.

No one I know is dropping 20K on shopping sprees, but I've dressed many people who have such budgets, and you know what the common thread, no pun intended, running between each of them is? They more often than not look contrived due to a painfully obvious lack of sincerity, which no amount of money can fake. I've found that those who appreciate artisanal/niche clothing the most are those who can afford it the least.

Just goes to show that money and style are mutually exclusive. Most everyone here already knows it. The rest are throwing around assumptions and adages because they don't have anything else to go by.

.

[underground lover]

Interest1, can I just say that your above explanation NEEDS to be put in a thread for noobies because after hanging around this forum for a few months now, I can see how essential this outlook is to understanding the overall attitude of SZ. I myself used to sell luxury brand women's shoes and while most of those brands would not be discussed on here, the same principle applied; plenty of young people or those on a lesser income saving their pennies and placing a pair on layby that would be their only new pair for the season ahead. These are also the same people who run to the sale rack to see if their favourite pair they have been eyeing off all season have been reduced and evidently they snatch up the bargains. Designer brands are by no means unattainable no matter what your income, you just have to want them enough and be prepared to do your homework on how to purchase them at the best price.

Sorry, this is a really long post for a first one, but I was very much inspired by Interest1's response.

[fenrost]

I am surprised, with the amount of people who take reselling value as a factor when they buy clothes...

[AZH]

I am surprised, with the amount of people who take reselling value as a factor when they buy clothes...

I am not surprised though. It actually tells you that most of us are not super rich, we are just average people. We do care if we spend $2000USD for a pair of shoes, how much can we recover when we decide not to wear them anymore.