random fashion thoughts

[Faust]

/\ this.

FMC, I never said SZ is some socialist stronghold - obviously that's ridiculous. I was talking about value-based aesthetics. I know Ann and I know enough about Raf - neither certainly started out thinking about major commercial success. They just wanted to put something into the world that they loved, and that was culture based, and they are lucky that there were enough people to pick up on that.

Again, the simple act of purchasing does not equal consumerism. Let's agree on what consumerism is if we want to pursue this further.

[zamb]

FYI I think the new set of values is leading is to utter social ruin but I certainly do not blame SZ or want to go back to staid bourgeois domination, this is why thinkers are currently trying to revive the idea of socialism, think Badiou, funnyman Zizek or dudes like Michéa.

tldr: Faust used the term bourgeois not capitalist, he is entirely right.

I think this is a statement ripe for discussion and should be expanded on further........

Let's agree on what consumerism is if we want to pursue this further.

Agreed, as I think people are sin the word to mean different things and hence the confusion/ misunderstandings

[nahneun]

Thanks, Fuuma. Your posts are always very insightful.

[Fuuma]

Thanks, Fuuma. Your posts are always very insightful.

Thanks. On a purely aesthetic level you'll note that

trad suiting/SZ style
&
bourgeois/new economy

leads to

good taste/avant-garde taste

[guardimp]

If the change is between good taste and avant-garde taste, what does bad taste equate to?

[casem]

I gotta say, Hood By Air is putting some pretty interesting garments down the runway.

[apathy!]

FYI I think the new set of values is leading is to utter social ruin

Could you elaborate on this?

/ syntax was great by the way.

[BSR]

Let's do a quick comparison using "the new economy" and its paladins.

so bourgeois/new economy:

but how is this "new economy" so different from the "old" one, so that it can lead to an entire set of new values and lifestyle principles? what is this new economy in your view? when did it start?

[Shucks]

If the change is between good taste and avant-garde taste, what does bad taste equate to?

i am now mulling this over. thanks for ruining my workday.

[zamb]

i am now mulling this over. thanks for ruining my workday.

you worked?!……..LOL

good discussion, but to take it further, bad taste from my vantage point is a poor understanding of what good taste is.
The Avante Garde is a clear understanding but utter repudiation (or subversion) of the hypocrisy of good taste………..

[Pumpfish]

If the change is between good taste and avant-garde taste, what does bad taste equate to?

aesthetic indifference?

[Faust]

Sorry, I think my post came across differently without the post to which it had been responding--it was originally intended against the "SZ is consumerism" argument, although by redefining consumerism rather than denying it. But you're right:



We're arguing at cross-purposes because of a lack of clear definition.

I don't think you ever claimed that SZ was socialist--this would be a wholly different argument. I suppose the problem is that we have a mushy boundary between what we identify as "consumerism", and what we identify, more broadly, as "capitalism". "Consumerism" understood as a purely cultural value within capitalist societies is certainly not identical with the act of consuming. I wouldn't so identify it (largely because I think the category "cultural" is not useful one in any situation).

But as I said, my argument wasn't really with you, I was just clarifying my position in relation to yours since that's what the other poster was commenting on. Possibly just should have deleted my post after they deleted theirs, to save confusion.

I know, I wasn't arguing with you - merely elaborating.

[Fuuma]

I think this is a statement ripe for discussion and should be expanded on further........

Not sure this is the right venue, maybe I am turning into a Tory Anarchist like Orwell in my old age.

[guardimp]

Zamb and Pumpfish

Both of you assume that the bad taste is backed by understanding and/or not caring. Is bad taste bourgeois - a figment of a society that is dependent on dichotomies to survive? While you have things that are translatable between the two societies it seems like some things in each are not found in the other.

[Fuuma]

but how is this "new economy" so different from the "old" one, so that it can lead to an entire set of new values and lifestyle principles? what is this new economy in your view? when did it start?

The bourgeois is, in part, build from pre-capitalistic archetypes and viewpoints (there's some aristocracy emulation, some middle-ages bourgeois continuity etc.). The "new economy archetype" is basically a pure capitalism product: it is an incarnation of the axiomatic neutrality (capitalism is mostly seen as having no underlying values and assumptions and being simply the only result of a series of objective logical rational inquiries) proclaimed by capitalism. You could see people like August Comte having their hands in its creation. The "counterculture" was also instrumental in having the bourgeoisie be defeated by this new economy paradigm: all those baby boomer hippies were the trojan horse precisely because most of their values were immediately compatible with capitalism in a way that bourgeois values never were. I'd say the 80s was the main pivotal period where someone could have definitely affirmed the bourgeois were going down in flames.

It also touches all realms: artists were supposed to be alone, removed genius creating in isolation from the market and suffering for their art, now they are supposed to be networking self-promoting machines.