random fashion thoughts

[Defender]

politics is so damn broad that every single decision you make is politics

I'm glad we're in complete agreement.

[zamb]

you can make anything political if you try hard enough. fashion is not intrinsically political, at least not in the sense you seem to be trying to get at, and trying to link the fact that manufacturing laws influence some aspects of it is quite a reach honestly. politics is so damn broad that every single decision you make is politics of some ilk, but you're getting into semantics and drivel if you try and link that fact to every single discussion and point you make.

I'm glad we're in complete agreement.

I was hoping we could have a reasonable discussion and when i saw Defenders initial statement i honestly thought he had some interesting perspective to contribute. However you killed your own credibility by saying that every single decision one makes is political

don't you guys realize how ridiculous such a perspective is?

now if every decision is political, then there is no way of actually knowing what politics is, or isn't. As such there would be no way to distinguish between a political decision and one that isn't political..........so then, if all decisions are political, then no decision is political and the whole subject becomes irrelevant and we can end here because it would be a complete waste of time to discuss this......

[gregor]

we're in agreement on that, but i think everyone else is as well. my point is to not conflate and imbue that into something like fashion. i don't think it's necessary to make note of or draw attention to because it simply is. i'm on his side, though zam is talking a bit more philosophically than i am, but though there is a lot of merit to your point, over-politicization is perhaps what is bad here, and lending too much credibility and attention to such things.

[Defender]

now if every decision is political, then there is no way of actually knowing what politics is, or isn't.

No, that logic does not follow. If every decision is political, then every decision is political. That doesn't devolve into some nihilistic existential argument if you just take it for what it's worth.

Deciding to whom to market, where, at what price point you'll manufacture, what profit margin you are happy with, where will your retail shops be located. Each of those decisions has a political element from things like potentially alienating half of your customer base by appearing liberal/conservative, to donating and working on campaigns of politicians who support moving the law in the direction you'd like to see it moved, or lobbying representatives for favorable results (CFDA).

How can people not see this? And if a single designer doesn't think about the politics of outsourcing or local labor, then someone at his/her organization HAS thought about it, voted on it at a board meeting, and made that decision for the designer.

There is no way to divorce the industry of fashion from politics. It is a multi-billion dollar, multi-national industry involved in international finance and taxation, labor laws, shipping standards - each facet of which is based on laws made by politicians. It's as clear as day. Thinking otherwise is to be naive to the way big business works, or naive to the interaction between the big guys and the little guys.

Like I said before, if you are not involved in these decisions, then the decisions are being made for you, but that doesn't mean you're not included in the process.

[Arkady]

Again, everyone sees that because what you're describing is life within an economy of so-called rational actors. There's nothing endemic to "fashion as a political phenomenon" or revelatory in what you're saying. You're telling everyone to get over themselves, to stop being naive, but you sound like you're in Second year right now at best. That's no easy way to get taken seriously.

[Defender]

I thought the discussion was about how the covert, necessarily geopolitical aspects of fashion were emerging theough overt political statements being made by designers.

The idea was that there would be a way to disengage this process.

I'm suggesting that not only is that not possible but it's inevitable that it will become worse as the geopolitical realities begin to have more influence on the business of design.

If you want an example, look at popular music. Pop music in America is now entirely a manufactured process devoid of any potential political statement to broaden the audience as wide as possible and move the most units. Fashion will be that sooner or later, and probably already is.

[zamb]

I thought the discussion was about how the covert, necessarily geopolitical aspects of fashion were emerging theough overt political statements being made by designers.

The idea was that there would be a way to disengage this process.

I'm suggesting that not only is that not possible but it's inevitable that it will become worse as the geopolitical realities begin to have more influence on the business of design.

If you want an example, look at popular music. Pop music in America is now entirely a manufactured process devoid of any potential political statement to broaden the audience as wide as possible and move the most units. Fashion will be that sooner or later, and probably already is.

can you please explain, your understanding......what is POLITICS and what do you mean by POLITICAL

[Arkady]

It's like a thing with a choice and shit.

[Faust]

I thought the discussion was about how the covert, necessarily geopolitical aspects of fashion were emerging theough overt political statements being made by designers.

The idea was that there would be a way to disengage this process.

I'm suggesting that not only is that not possible but it's inevitable that it will become worse as the geopolitical realities begin to have more influence on the business of design.

If you want an example, look at popular music. Pop music in America is now entirely a manufactured process devoid of any potential political statement to broaden the audience as wide as possible and move the most units. Fashion will be that sooner or later, and probably already is.

No, the discussion was that fashion DESIGN and PRESENTATION (aesthetics) - not manufacturing practices (mechanics) - is inherently apolitical and should be so.

If you think every decision is political, your life must be pretty shitty. Are you one of those vegans that stare disapprovingly at people until they choke on their burger?

[Defender]

can you please explain, your understanding......what is POLITICS and what do you mean by POLITICAL

I'll explain with as local and personal an example as I can.

I have a colleague, a fellow attorney, who wrote an article in the local newspaper (third biggest city in Illinois) explaining why Kim Davis did not have the First Amendment right to refuse to issue marriage licenses because she is an elected official charged with defending the law. He wasn't TRYING to make a political statement, just to explain the situation to people who might not understand.

He received dozens of hand-written death threat letters at his law office. By simply explaining the situation, he jumped into a political argument and lost a segment of our community as potential clients, diminishing his potential business, and is, apparently, in at least some degree of danger.

How do I know it was a political argument? Because politicians running for office went to visit Kim Davis in jail. The death threat letters called my friend a liberal Democrat, every time.

Every decision a person makes has the potential to draw him into the cesspool bullshit world of political segmentation that has its tendrils in every aspect of American life.

Use fur? You'll upset some liberals. Show two women kissing in your ad? You'll upset some conservatives. Outsource your labor? You'll piss off almost everyone except people chasing bottom dollar deals.

A political issue is one that is based on the rule of law, set by politicians, the outcome and status of which is based on who we elect. BUT, where I am, specificially, and where most Americans are, generally, every thing you do is a potential political firestorm that would pose itself as "risk" in business terms for large fashion companies.

As a result, I foresee fashion becoming more homogenized and less rebellious. There may be a flurry of political statements, but it would be the death knell of a once-creative industry. The evidence is NYFW and to a lesser extent even the most recent PFW, where there wasn't much in the way of inspiration, but there was a political protest on a runway, which was quickly removed and never discussed/represented afterwards. Rebellion against political market engineering (Merkel as a "head" of the EU market) emerged in a flurry and was quashed to keep the market happy.

[zamb]

I'll explain.

"and as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad"
-Acts 26:24-

Do you actually realized that you did not define the words i ask you to

[Defender]

Do you actually realized that you did not define the words i ask you to

I absolutely did.

A political issue is one that is based on the rule of law, set by politicians, the outcome and status of which is based on who we elect. BUT, where I am, specifically, and where most Americans are, generally, every thing you do is a potential political firestorm that would pose itself as "risk" in business terms for large fashion companies.

[Defender]

If you define politics as the exercise of power (and you should ;)), then most decisions are political. It doesn't really matter whether you believe they are or not. It doesn't really matter either whether they appear political or not. They are.

Exactly. There seems to be a lot of sticking heads in sand, here. I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone where people don't realize, or choose to ignore, that every exercise of power and every dollar spent is a political activity. It's a basic fundamental aspect of modern society.

[Shucks]

i'm liking defender's general reasoning and rhetoric here. not surprised to learn u are an attorney. and now the nick makes sense too... a bit slow on the uptake, but i get there eventually....

any communication can be said to be an exercise in power. visual communication and the generation of visual material not excepted. hence, esthetics is politics, as far as i am concerned. just look at the nexus of ideology and branding, for instance. or fashion and gender/class. etc etc.

[stagename]

Exactly. There seems to be a lot of sticking heads in sand, here. I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone where people don't realize, or choose to ignore, that every exercise of power and every dollar spent is a political activity. It's a basic fundamental aspect of modern society.

Now that I deleted my comment I feel like a fool. But I'm with Defender as well.

Edit: was able to retrieve it:

If you define politics as the exercise of power (and you should ;)), then most decisions are political. It doesn't really matter whether you believe they are or not. It doesn't really matter either whether they appear political or not. They are. Some things are more politicized than others (e.g., food, smoking), but it doesn't mean that the rest of our decisions aren't political. Being rich and moving into a gentrifying neighborhood. Buying clothes at Zara. Reprimanding a boy for dressing like a girl. Investing in company ABC. These all both showcase, affirm (negate) existing norms, power dynamics, and where you are positioned in these debates, and by doing so are politically-laden decisions. Power and resistance can operate very visibly, but more often than not do so in plain sight.

And reading higher in the thread, Faust, even aesthetics can be politics. An example of this is Native headbands in electronic music festivals. I don't know how you can decide to just cast aside "identity politics" from a conversation on politics.

I believe that part of the reason why this is "suffocating society" is that we've recently been made aware of this, i.e., "politically correct" is a recent societal, hum, endeavor. So we have a lot to deal with at the moment in understnading the dnyamics of power and what cna be done to try to live in a more equitable society.