What are you wearing today?

[Faust]

But do they need us? I wondered about that earlier this morning on my way to the train station, stumbling upon pavement cracks in the middle of a written conversation regarding aitor throup, whose reluctance to produce comes off as some version of observer effect in taking his creative process from concept to tangible things and conclusions that will inevitably result from them. Is the wearer at all necessary? The idea has been played with in a wide range of possible meanings from felt suit to Carol's possible attempts to subsume or compromise the wearer that have been interpreted so far as alleging a degree of hostility towards him. Or misogyny?

Wear has always seemed a central part of work with continues and it's spiritual predecessors in Japanese deconstruction- the garment's past lives as other objects and future ones upon the bodies of their wearers. Fabrics that deform and fray, yield to the body with age and assume their completed state only in and through the act of being worn. Though he never ceased work on expanding his cosmology as an undrpinning of his design work (and that design work itself), Altieri did not produce since end of av, with the exceptions of archival process. It would seem that he was content with continuing this work purely for his own pleasure, unconcerned with yielding to various realities of market and industry (archival side-projects aside.) He did not need us. He never needed us, or anyone.

So how did we end up here anyway? I came to think after a while that we may have been brought together here in recognition of something shared within ourselves, with the objects of our fascination, sometimes more abstract and sometimes concrete, as a catalyst of sorts. They did not need us, but we liked having each other in the shared appreciation, critical distance and humour this place once afforded. Today things are different. I am being added by Lumet et umbra on Facebook, heaven only knows why- I am less than an amateur in all this, and seek no part of it. No matter, dozens of newly-established b-lines out of dozens of newly-opened shops will remember the glory days of it for you wholesale. But I can't help missing that sincerity to some extent. I miss the sincerity of it, when there was nothing to lose.

Funny how you blame Geoffrey for naivete of his views yet pine for some kind of pure days of yore when everything was unblemished.

Think about how many people StyleZeitgeist afforded an opportunity to make a living doing something they love. If this is not the very definition of merit, I don't know what is. I, for one, feel overwhelming gratitude to whatever forces have brought me where I am today every single morning.

Sure, it's easy to sling mud from the sidelines. Staying critical and true to one's vision while having something at stake, that's the hard part. Nothing is pure - we try to do the best we can.

[zamb]

- I am less than an amateur in all this, and seek no part of it. No matter, dozens of newly-established b-lines out of dozens of newly-opened shops will remember the glory days of it for you wholesale. But I can't help missing that sincerity to some extent. I miss the sincerity of it, when there was nothing to lose.

Like I said to another member here a few days ago, who called himself a "mere consumer" I dont think your reference to yourself here is at all accurate.
you were once a contributor in terms of archival research to one of the most critically acclaimed menswear labels to have existed in the last 10 or so years............
you were (are?) also an employee/ contributor to a clothing establishment with greater access and insight to some of the most revered and respected designers discussed on this forum........
the idea of being a mere amateur or as you say " less than an amateur in all this"...........is not something I at all take seriously, and I dont think you do either, and if that is the case you are only and willfully deluding yourself.

the truth of the matter is however way we look at it, there should be something to lose and rightly so, for whatever reckless abandon and innocence we had/ want/ crave, is only relevant if it can be lost or there are other factors to consider in the grand scheme of things. Responsibility and a measure of being considerate are great traits to have, and if these traits can only come when there are great things we treasure that can be lost, then so be it. Those who fail to recognize this become royal jackasses yapping away without reason and can only bring more harm than gain.

[Mail-Moth]

Zamb, I am indeed a mere consumer : I'm not a designer, I don't visit showrooms and I don't attend shows. I very rarely visit stores, and mostly buy things online. Being part of this forum doesn't make me some kind of insider, and I wouldn't wish to. Just buying stuff = consumer. That's it. Not a blind and ravenous one, but one still.
Whatever, this is not important.

Fact is that as time goes by, this forum looks more and more like a china shop - every step you make you risk to break something. Someone's business is at stake ; some hard worker's reputation is threatened ; some assistant is reading you ; and so on. This place has grown so important for so many people's jobs that you don't exactly feel at ease speaking your mind, even in a diplomatic way, when it comes to the work of people that happen to be related to this board, more or less directly.

You, for one, don't seem to be comfortable with that, frankly. First you publicly point fingers and then draw the curtain, arguing that usually you don't chew your words in IRL, face to face discussions. I can understand the reasons you exposed, niche design is a very small world, but in that case, refrain in the first place would probably have been wiser.

But for a consumer like me ? Overtly disliking some local/affiliated designer's collection is perceived as a lack of consideration for his dedication, hard work and vision ; on the other hand, I could probably whip my ass with a Thom Browne shirt and get nothing but a round of applause from the local contemptors of bling. Both are creators though. And you certainly could feel quite a bunch of dedication in TB's last FW collection.

I am in a very easy position, I know that. But the fact that someone is working his/her ass off on a collection, a project, doesn't automatically mean that the result is worthy of praise, at least in my book. Nor does the fact that at least he's trying.

[Faust]

/\ No gripe with that.

However, it is also not true to generalize that certain designers get an undue pass (see the reaction to the last Ann Demeulemeester collection).

[zamb]

Zamb, I am indeed a mere consumer : I'm not a designer, I don't visit showrooms and I don't attend shows. I very rarely visit stores, and mostly buy things online. Being part of this forum doesn't make me some kind of insider, and I wouldn't wish to. Just buying stuff = consumer. That's it. Not a blind and ravenous one, but one still.
Whatever, this is not important.

Fact is that as time goes by, this forum looks more and more like a china shop - every step you make you risk to break something. Someone's business is at stake ; some hard worker's reputation is threatened ; some assistant is reading you ; and so on. This place has grown so important for so many people's jobs that you don't exactly feel at ease speaking your mind, even in a diplomatic way, when it comes to the work of people that happen to be related to this board, more or less directly.

You, for one, don't seem to be comfortable with that, frankly. First you publicly point fingers and then draw the curtain, arguing that usually you don't chew your words in IRL, face to face discussions. I can understand the reasons you exposed, niche design is a very small world, but in that case, refrain in the first place would probably have been wiser.

But for a consumer like me ? Overtly disliking some local/affiliated designer's collection is perceived as a lack of consideration for his dedication, hard work and vision ; on the other hand, I could probably whip my ass with a Thom Browne shirt and get nothing but a round of applause from the local contemptors of bling. Both are creators though. And you certainly could feel quite a bunch of dedication in TB's last FW collection.

I am in a very easy position, I know that. But the fact that someone is working his/her ass off on a collection, a project, doesn't automatically mean that the result is worthy of praise, at least in my book. Nor does the fact that at least he's trying.

F,

I hear you
but I think there is something important here for which there needs to be a new category, and whether we care to acknowledge it or not we are a part of it.
I know of no other Forum, where there is such a close proximity of the relationship between the creator and the consumer.
I know of no other Forum where the members who are consumers have at their disposal the depth of knowledge, insight and ready access to the designers they buy from like we do.
I think whether we are aware of it or not, SZ without intentionally setting out to do this has significantly changed the relationship between creator and consumer, and people like you, without maybe not even being aware, are no more mere consumers, but a consumer with closer access, greater influence and can easily bridge the divide that has long existed between the creator and the client.
this is by no means a bad thing, and as a designer it is something I have long welcomed, something I have long championed, and dare I say, something my business could have never grown as fast and steady as it did without. I see no corruption it it, no carnality in it and as such i dont see it s something we should be reluctant to admit

I dont know what to call it, but there may now have to be a new category, a new definition for people who are a part of this process. because it exist and there is just no way of denying it.


Also, I do not think one needs to be overly cautious in expressing there honest opinion about things. I personally would certainly cringe if my work were to be always lauded and applauded without anyone ever saying that something is wrong or off. the only issue I have is that some amount of thoughtfulness must go into how one proceeds with this.

[endorphinz]

there is nuthin new goin on here. manufacturers/creators/designers participating in a small,niche business have no choice but to allow the users of their services/products to participate in the process. well,at least if commercial viability matters.

today, with competition being so fierce in every business,in every sector,almost all transactions are almost certainly followed by a request for feedback.

consumer input and feedback is needed,and welcomed universally. again, the caveat being that commercial success matters.

[endorphinz]

^
it all boils down to:

@ what point does art become business to the artist/creator,if ever?. if commercial viability matters at any level,so does public criticism/feedback. I really don't think that's debatable.

[cjbreed]

Maybe it's a good thing then that this niche is hitting a dead end (something I felt strongly last season, less so this season) and maybe we can start talking about other things....

i think this is a good point. but i wouldn't call it a dead end just yet. there is plenty of great work out there. in and out of the bling povera aesthetic. so its not dead, but maybe there is room for more now. i agreed very much with AKA's point about proliferation vs. stagnation. and i also admire his personal style ethos of pairing the glam with the glunge and nary a fuck is given. there is a boldness, maturity and confidence in it that i admire and that i think we may be headed towards. i like the idea of being open and cool enough to drop the pretense and just say fuck it i like that damn rottweiler tee and i'll rock it with my balmain jeans if i feel like it. with my harnden hat and ccp boots.

...

however, I am sorry to disappoint those who would think I am going to get into a public discussion of naming names of designers and giving an open critique of what I think about their work. I wont, and pragmatic wisdom dictates that I do not...

...

StyleZeitgeist for me has always been a place for honest critical discourse, and the root of my statements is that more and more I am seeing less of that, and its coming from people who have all the knowledge to not fall into that trap. Hopefully we can get back to being such a place again, rather than a place of unfettered hero worship

a couple things here. i just want to reiterate that i was in no way calling you out zam, or trying to put you out on front street. i am a fan, personally and professionally, and you know that. and i know you can have a discussion without it being taken as a personal affront. but posts on a public forum can sometimes be taken more sensitively than a private conversation so i just want to make this clear again.

i completely get that you wouldn't want to criticize other working designers, and i think thats fair. i just wanted to know:

1. who is getting undue credit and hero worship?

because i don't really see it. many people adore all things ccp, but many people also call it out when it looks bad. it happens almost everytime someone gushes over a ccp piece, someone else says, "you just like it cuz its ccp!" seems to balance out. in addition, whether these heroes deserve it or not is debatable. thats a debate i'm interested in.


2. who is out there doing great things and not getting the respect they deserve?

i felt the 2nd question, which would yield be nothing but praise for the designers mentioned, would be easy to answer. but if its uncomfortable i get it and no big deal. other members can chime in to keep the discussion going.

i'll say a little about it. for me, in the mens designers, LUC is the brand i love the most that i feel has hit a wall the hardest. Individual Sentiments is the label i was most excited about that i feel has petered out a bit. Devoa is the label i wish i could like but for some reason i just don't really care. Aitor Throup - i don't think he is actually a fashion designer. Sruli Recht - just not for me. if your work can't be a real, workable, wearable, producible collection then you have missed the mark. Lost & Found is the one "new" label that i feel is really delivering every season. the look can be a little formless for me but still, she's really doing her thing with regard to creativity and quality. and for the sake of brevity i'll just say i still love rick, ccp and m.a+. specifics can go to their respective threads.

but i haven't seen a "new" hero lately. just sayin'...

BUT, that being said, there is no shortage of great stuff out there from all these designers and so many more. i don't feel like we've hit a dead end at all...

...
Fact is that as time goes by, this forum looks more and more like a china shop - every step you make you risk to break something. Someone's business is at stake ; some hard worker's reputation is threatened ; some assistant is reading you ; and so on. This place has grown so important for so many people's jobs that you don't exactly feel at ease speaking your mind, even in a diplomatic way, when it comes to the work of people that happen to be related to this board, more or less directly.

this is somewhat true but its a tricky thing. its like a tv show insulting its sponsors. not sure how to work that other than to be polite but honest.

..

However, it is also not true to generalize that certain designers get an undue pass (see the reaction to the last Ann Demeulemeester collection).

this was part of my original point. i totally agree.

[mortalveneer]

I feel like the preceding three pages of discussion or so should be in the NEXT thread.

If I wasn't just in Jil Sander suits every day, and sweating like a pig in the roman heat the few times I wasn't, I might attempt my once yearly fit pic.

Maybe if i spring for the fly yarns at motel salieri i'll do so...

[Faust]

That's a really great point, merz, I couldn't agree more in the idea that a designer, as an artist (!), couldn't give a damn about what anyone on this forum says, because, no matter how deep discussions get on here, they rarely get to the level of art criticism, which is what an artist may care about some more (if they at all wanna care about critical response in the first place). When I say this, I can't help thinking of music criticism and how so often SZ response (or, say, what comes from the majority of responses) reminds me of ratings Pitchfork gives to bands. And should one Gogogo Airheart (sorry :p) give a shit they never passed 7.something? I sincerely hope not. As much as I hope that Ann Demeulemeester doesn't give a shit about the reactions of SZ on her latest collection.
p.s.
What the fuck are you doing on facebook? :p

p.p.s.
MBD, that dress is one of the most fascinating ones I've ever seen!

a) You'd be surprised.
b) I could not disagree with you more. Criticism here serves a very important function for designers. It's a response from their audience. Designers are not artists (And, artists have largely stopped caring about art criticism since the 80s, when gallery owners took over as ta$te-makers.). They work in a different system. And those who can step over their ego would be well to do to listen to their audience, provided it's an intelligent one. It is much better to take criticism then to continue working thinking all is dandy and wake up one day bankrupt because people have stopped buying your clothes. Fawning is a particular disease of fashion which can be fatal.

Do they needs us? What a dumb question. Of course they do. Who buys their clothes?

[Faust]

I still have the dumb idea that the ones that I really care about don't. And when I say that I don't mean people buying their clothing, I mean this community. Truth is that some of the most knowledgeable and refined members here could hardly afford any of the clothing discussed here. This dialogues where what brought me here in the first place.

The emphasis you make on "who buys their clothes?" makes sense with the current layout.

It's not emphasis. It's the very thing that lets designers design.

[killah]

just another consumer.



raf parachute jacket
rvca tank
rick cargo pants
raf moto hightops

[liberty_of_style]

Killah. There is one suitable word for this fit - Urban

[lowrey]

the whole art jargon boils down to how you define it, which is why I think its kind of pointless.

[endorphinz]

ok,so if a fashion collection is deemed as,and qualifies as art, but consumer reaction dictates that it's virtually unwearable,are the pieces still considered clothes?