What are you wearing today?

[Faust]

So much worse for the state of fashion design then :P

I think you misunderstand me (or not, judging by your last paragraph). I am not saying SZ puts down dictates for creative direction. But it does address many issues (quality of construction, pricing, production issues, and, well, aesthetics as well) that are important.

I think this is where the core of our disagreement lies. I think that fashion design can be understood as a form of art (we had a discussion on pure/applied art distinction in another thread so i won't go into that now). And if I take a look at any of the recent Rei Kawakubo's collections, I sure hope she doesn't give a damn about anyone on here (or anywhere else) saying "what the fuck". There is a reason why certain collections are so striking that the entire point of wearability seems obscured, but which are still far from a random circus mish-mash.
I think that an artistically valuable collection may not only challenge, but sometimes even surpass the standards of the zeitgeist. In contrast, the aesthetic framework of a mere consumer is rarely able to do the same, but it usually remains conservative towards the very core of those standards, and hence, not able to give an adequate response in this sense. I am not saying that all consumers judge things only in terms of wearability, or that all consumers are not able to see further from the boundaries of the zeitgeist, I am just saying that that rarely happens, and so the artistic, conceptual value of the collections slips the discussions.

one more thing: I think where it does get interesting for designers (or any other artists) to take the opinion of the audience into account are non-aesthetic issues regarding production and fashion in general, so political, social, etc. considerations, but that's an entirely different thing.

I think you misunderstand again. I am not saying whether fashion can be art - that's an opinion. I am saying that fashion designers don't work like artists (with the exception of Poell) - that's a fact. Kawakaubo's indifference to her audience is afforded to her by the various commercial projects that are not so unconventional.

[kunk75]

I think the discourse is rooted in the fact that many members conflate fashion with design. IMO Rick and Ann and especially Julius are very much creating fashion based on an ethos they have or had while the artisan brands don't seem to defend or explain via elevator speeches and pr. I see almost no correlation between Rick and Ann and a person like harden. I suppose its a good thing as the SZ members may now be of a wider range. For me personally I am much more into industrial and furniture design and functionality than I am into the concepts behind what I wear. If anything I've oversimplified and simply started buying what feels good. If the latest Ann. D and ro collections aren't just as much about hollow fashion as any other Paris or Milan dEsigner maybe I am just missing something. But I have felt like this for a long time as ol raf collections with joy division stickers are no different than Madonna embedding herself with dance subcultures to steal their shit and co opt it for the populace.

[avout]

I think the discourse is rooted in the fact that many members conflate fashion with design. IMO Rick and Ann and especially Julius are very much creating fashion based on an ethos they have or had while the artisan brands don't seem to defend or explain via elevator speeches and pr. I see almost no correlation between Rick and Ann and a person like harden. I suppose its a good thing as the SZ members may now be of a wider range. For me personally I am much more into industrial and furniture design and functionality than I am into the concepts behind what I wear. If anything I've oversimplified and simply started buying what feels good. If the latest Ann. D and ro collections aren't just as much about hollow fashion as any other Paris or Milan dEsigner maybe I am just missing something. But I have felt like this for a long time as ol raf collections with joy division stickers are no different than Madonna embedding herself with dance subcultures to steal their shit and co opt it for the populace.

I'm mostly on the same page, but do we really think that anything that isn't artisanal or super conceptual is "hollow fashion"? Maybe I take a rosier view because I haven't spent as much time with fashion as some of the members here, but I don't see "commercial" as inherently bad. The designers that appeal to me the most are exactly the ones that can be commercial while still producing interesting collections (say, good Raf, Dries, Hedi, Rick). It's a different sort of challenge than insulating yourself in an atelier and striving for purity, but I wouldn't say it's inherently worse.

And while I agree that criticism and feedback are important, discussions here tend to get a little theological.

[MetroBulotDodo]

Someone fucking post a fit pic....please.

MBD

[Rosenrot]

*cues for someone to chime in on how weather-inappropriate it is*

[zamb]

I'm banning myself from he WAYWT both verbally and pictorially for two weeks....................
Seems like everybody's sword has suddenly become unsheathed

[cjbreed]

we're discussing not dueling lol

edit - just fyi this post took about 35 minutes to load

[mortalveneer]

*cues for someone to chime in on how weather-inappropriate it is*

a sign of a critical mind just cannot find something to critique...I wouldn't take it personally

[Rosenrot]

It's da mothaflippin' Internet. I'd lead a tough life if I were to take it seriously all the time.

On a different note, it's been a great discussion so far but we might need a bit of a break.

[Johnny]

i, personally, have enjoyed (following) the discussion; much less, on the whole, most of the outfits.

[endorphinz]

*cues for someone to chime in on how weather-inappropriate it is*

I thought someone just did

cheers allan for that last one, though i don't know how you're managing in that bomber with the temps what they've been out here of late.

Rosenrot my comment of a few weeks back was in no way meant as a personal attack. I enjoy your fits and it's obvious you have mad style.I guess some people are just more willing than I to endure discomfort for the sake of "fashion". I kinda like the challenge of tryin to adapt to weather rather than trying to ignore it by being oblivious to it. dunno,maybe it's an age thing.


and anyone bored with the recent discussion is invited to post a fit themselves. no one is stopping YOU

obviously, I am not callin MBD out.

and yes cj,boad has been kinda slow & irratic for me too recently.

[genevieveryoko]

i think this is a good point. but i wouldn't call it a dead end just yet. there is plenty of great work out there. in and out of the bling povera aesthetic. so its not dead, but maybe there is room for more now. i agreed very much with AKA's point about proliferation vs. stagnation. and i also admire his personal style ethos of pairing the glam with the glunge and nary a fuck is given. there is a boldness, maturity and confidence in it that i admire and that i think we may be headed towards. i like the idea of being open and cool enough to drop the pretense and just say fuck it i like that damn rottweiler tee and i'll rock it with my balmain jeans if i feel like it. with my harnden hat and ccp boots.

i don't think we're headed towards this 'style' that you so eloquently describe, i think this always has and will be the sort of attitude that embodies the spirit of the avant-garde fashion...something that can't be pinned down, and whether or not one subscribes to some particular niche aesthetic should only be seen as a supporting detail.

[cjbreed]

i think that in the larger context you are describing, you are correct and i totally agree. but to the extent we are discussing this forum in particular, there is a degree of label consciousness that can serve as a hindrance to expanding our idea of what is and is not "cool". what is allowed to be sick as fuck. whether this happens purposefully or as an unintended consequence of our shared sensibilities is debatable. and i think that this feeling of anticipation for whats next will open that door somewhat.

also, not sure if sarcastic or not about my squidbilly eloquence.

[genevieveryoko]

not sarcastic

[Rosenrot]

endorphinz, I meant it in jest. No hard feelings