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  • MetroBulotDodo
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2010
    • 1296

    Originally posted by BSR View Post
    Ha, I'm glad you answered

    I'm not sure the following will be really a proper answer but maybe it will make my former comment clearer:

    -i referred to the social contract classic theories, like those of Hobbes and Locke. According to them the society as a whole is a product of a social contract, which is to be understood as both its hypothetical origin (providing a possible historical starting point) and its foundation (providing a legitimacy for the social fact). I'm quite convinced by Hume's critic that points out that to pass a contract you need to already live in a social form. It's a circular argument very close to the one Rousseau uses about the origin of the language (to agree on the convention that the word 'dog' names a dog you need to speak in a language, thus there is no first overall convention about the meaning of words).
    I got that - I'm coming from a classical liberalism background, and all the critiques thereof (principally from the critiques, to be honest.) I also agree -- to a point -- with Hume's critique of Rousseau's belief that humans are born free -- this is the origin of Rousseau's fascination with the 'noble savage' - the bon sauvage, and with the slave no? Of course, his interest in the noble savage is limited to the issue of where the savage fits into an evolutionary teleological model of societal development.

    What Hume misses perhaps is that Rousseau would have very well agreed with him on his stance that one must exist in a social form in order to make a social contract. Rousseau, it should be noted, differentiated between the naked society and the legitimate society. The noble savage of course belonged in the category of those who lived in illegitimate society whereas later, more advanced societies belonged, naturally in the legitimate society, where its members have agreed to a social contract.

    This distinction renders Hume's frustrating tautological position moot, viz., Rousseau's logic is as follows: men have first to live in elementary society before evolving to legitimate, democratic society, therefore he is already a member of a "type" of social form.

    In any case, I disagree with what I think you are saying about the highly theoretical nature of the social contract. It's not a surprise that Rousseau, Montaigne, Locke, Hume, etc are becoming interested in these questions as Western man is encountering people living in forms unfamiliar to them through their excursions to the New World; in other words, I am insisting that theory must, and has always been founded on the empirical. If not, we're trapped in the limitless possibilities inherent in the method of 'thought experiments' - the nightmare of Shroedinger's cat ad infinitum.

    I'm uncertain if this advances our mutual understanding about the issue of the social contract. Perhaps you can articulate the question in a different form? In whatever case, you're much smarter than I, and I'm certain I'll have to continue to think about the issues (I think) you're posing.

    Peace out,

    MBD
    "To articulate what is past does not mean to recognize 'how it really was.'
    It means to take control of a memory, as it flashes in a moment of danger."

    -Walter Benjamin. Thesis VI, Theses on the Philosophy of History
    My rarities and quotidian garments for sale thread. My tumblr and eBay page.

    Comment

    • interest1
      Senior Member
      • Nov 2008
      • 3343

      Originally posted by MetroBulotDodo View Post

      I got that - I'm coming from a classical liberalism background, and all the critiques thereof (principally from the critiques, to be honest.) I also agree -- to a point -- with Hume's critique of Rousseau's belief that humans are born free -- this is the origin of Rousseau's fascination with the 'noble savage' - the bon sauvage, and with the slave no? Of course, his interest in the noble savage is limited to the issue of where the savage fits into an evolutionary teleological model of societal development.

      What Hume misses perhaps is that Rousseau would have very well agreed with him on his stance that one must exist in a social form in order to make a social contract. Rousseau, it should be noted, differentiated between the naked society and the legitimate society. The noble savage of course belonged in the category of those who lived in illegitimate society whereas later, more advanced societies belonged, naturally in the legitimate society, where its members have agreed to a social contract.

      This distinction renders Hume's frustrating tautological position moot, viz., Rousseau's logic is as follows: men have first to live in elementary society before evolving to legitimate, democratic society, therefore he is already a member of a "type" of social form.

      In any case, I disagree with what I think you are saying about the highly theoretical nature of the social contract. It's not a surprise that Rousseau, Montaigne, Locke, Hume, etc are becoming interested in these questions as Western man is encountering people living in forms unfamiliar to them through their excursions to the New World; in other words, I am insisting that theory must, and has always been founded on the empirical. If not, we're trapped in the limitless possibilities inherent in the method of 'thought experiments' - the nightmare of Shroedinger's cat ad infinitum.

      I'm uncertain if this advances our mutual understanding about the issue of the social contract. Perhaps you can articulate the question in a different form? In whatever case, you're much smarter than I, and I'm certain I'll have to continue to think about the issues (I think) you're posing.

      Peace out,

      MBD

      I fear my wrists are next.

      MBD – You've much too brilliant a mind, my dear, to settle for such thoughtful postulation being strewn across 2 different threads. This deserves its own. If we can have a dedicated safety pin thread (freakin' SAFETY PINS, dude!), and another for a suicide note longer than most crime novels, surely we can make a proper home for this unique discussion.
      Besides, whoever makes it, gets to name it – and isn't that the very best part?

      Any of this crazy-talk makin' sense? ;)

      .
      .
      sain't
      .

      Comment

      • lowrey
        ventiundici
        • Dec 2006
        • 8383

        anyone else have trouble viewing part of the images here: http://scoute.org/blog/?p=1032

        I have about half visible, half loading indefinitely
        "AVANT GUARDE HIGHEST FASHION. NOW NOW this is it people, these are the brands no one fucking knows and people are like WTF. they do everything by hand in their freaking secret basement and shit."

        STYLEZEITGEIST MAGAZINE | BLOG

        Comment

        • DRRRK
          Senior Member
          • Aug 2009
          • 1195

          I can see them all completely and they look stunning.

          Comment

          • lowrey
            ventiundici
            • Dec 2006
            • 8383

            no slow loading?

            thats good, but I wonder what my problem is then... quite a number of pictures from photobucket have been slow or not showing up for me recently.
            "AVANT GUARDE HIGHEST FASHION. NOW NOW this is it people, these are the brands no one fucking knows and people are like WTF. they do everything by hand in their freaking secret basement and shit."

            STYLEZEITGEIST MAGAZINE | BLOG

            Comment

            • Vanna
              Senior Member
              • May 2008
              • 1217

              I wish someone would slap the shit out of me.
              Life is a hiiighway

              Comment

              • obsi
                Member
                • Aug 2011
                • 47

                Hurricane!!
                "It's hard to tell the real people from those who pretend. These days I've got more shoes than I've got real friends."

                Comment

                • Faust
                  kitsch killer
                  • Sep 2006
                  • 37849

                  I am in Zone C. Ooops.
                  Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                  StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                  Comment

                  • interest1
                    Senior Member
                    • Nov 2008
                    • 3343

                    Originally posted by Faust View Post
                    I am in Zone C. Ooops.
                    So are you planning on evacuating? I'm worried for you.
                    And with half my ceiling being glass, I'm worried for me, too.

                    All NYC subway service will shut down at noon. First time ever in its 107-year history.
                    So if you do leave, do it early. And start packin' that vintage Ann NOW
                    .
                    sain't
                    .

                    Comment

                    • obsi
                      Member
                      • Aug 2011
                      • 47

                      Went for a jog out in the hurricane at like 5 am, was amazing.
                      "It's hard to tell the real people from those who pretend. These days I've got more shoes than I've got real friends."

                      Comment

                      • Faust
                        kitsch killer
                        • Sep 2006
                        • 37849

                        Originally posted by interest1 View Post
                        So are you planning on evacuating? I'm worried for you.
                        And with half my ceiling being glass, I'm worried for me, too.

                        All NYC subway service will shut down at noon. First time ever in its 107-year history.
                        So if you do leave, do it early. And start packin' that vintage Ann NOW
                        No, I'll be fine. It's already category 1, I am in a danger zone for category 3. I am actually looking forward to the weekend of reading.
                        Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                        StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                        Comment

                        • casem
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2006
                          • 2589

                          Ugh, why do I always get sample sale remorse? Not that i bought things I didn't want but that I didn't buy enough. I always go through all the cool shit I passed up afterward thinking "gah that was so cheap, I'll never find anything like that so cheap again, why didn't I kop!!!". Things I didn't get at the big Cloak sample sale still haunt me...
                          music

                          Comment

                          • syed
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2010
                            • 564

                            Been watching the coverage on the news - hope all the East coasters and New Yorkers are safe.
                            "Lots of people who think they are into fashion are actually just into shopping"

                            Comment

                            • casem
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2006
                              • 2589

                              ^ So far so good here, although a few tree branches have been knocking at my window. Doesn't seem so bad yet, just lots of rain and heavy wind, we'll see if the worst is yet to come.
                              music

                              Comment

                              • Faust
                                kitsch killer
                                • Sep 2006
                                • 37849

                                I did not expect much. I have learned to apply a 50% discount to all news by now. Fucking sensationalism seekers and fear mongers.
                                Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                                StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                                Comment

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