A 1,905-page suicide note

[Mail-Moth]

I simply say that you don't know what his mother will think in a few days, a few months, a few years. Maybe she'll end seeing her son as a great human being, maybe she'll fully understand his decision, maybe she'll accept it - or not. Maybe she'll be proud, yes. Or not. All this belongs to her, not to you.

You're pissed by someone commiting suicide after writing a book about the meaninglessness of life. You can't be sure of the real meaning of his gesture : maybe it was the conclusion he came to after years of intellectual research (flawed or not), maybe he wrote this book only to allow himself to die. Maybe he simply was a very sick mind, a megalomaniac dreaming of some posthumous fame.
But you don't know, hence you can't judge.

Saying that suicide is selfish is a truism. And blaming those who choose to die for not seeking the help of their loved ones, or of a psychiatrist, or of a priest, is simply ignoring that they certainly would have done so if only they had been able to. It makes as little sense as blaming
a paranoid for his delusions. What is common sense to you is not anymore for someone trapped by his own mind.

[BeauIXI]

Well spoken as usual, Moth.

[Faust]

saying nobody has the right to judge anyone is the height of banality. judgement comes with the ease of reflex and instinct.

that may be true, but one would imagine that in order to judge one should have a deep understanding of the subject, so we should check that instinct sometimes, the way we check other instincts, like sexual. i can judge fashion - i am not going to judge suicide, because i don't know the depth of emotion and tragedy that may drive one to do it. but heirloom apparently does.

[christianef]

plus, its 1900 pages - so from a quick browse i think he wants to encourage a level of sincere discourse beyond - what about his mom or you dont know what he was thinking. questions in the beginning why we are brought up to believe death is inferior to life. kinda cliche but draws parallèles to heirlooms position on men wearing skirts. and thats just in like the first page.

[zamb]

Saying that suicide is selfish is a truism. And blaming those who choose to die for not seeking the help of their loved ones, or of a psychiatrist, or of a priest, is simply ignoring that they certainly would have done so if only they had been able to. It makes as little sense as blaming
a paranoid for his delusions. What is common sense to you is not anymore for someone trapped by his own mind.

Brilliant!
I have been meaning to comment again in this thread since last night, but held myself back.
I have held myself back because I have felt like putting on my Armour reaching for my sword and startling a philosophical and dialectical battle that I fear my lead to many cyber wounds to others and myself..............hence my reluctance.
Its sad and shocking what this obviously brilliant young man has done, and I am wondering how brilliant he really was, because in reading some excerpts of his book, I'm already seeing significant weaknesses and flaws in some of his ideas. What is even more shocking is some of the responses I am seeing here............in an attempt to make sense of his actions. It should be clear to all who have any kind of common sense, to those who are in touch with reality, that this young man could never have been of sound mind and rational thinking
Makes me wonder how we view human life. and if we can justify and see logic in something like this, what kind of love and respect can we really have for each other?

Western Philosophy and thinking has sold us a lot of dumb and stupid ideas, they have come by articulate and dedicated men who were determined to react in their dislike for the state of the society in which they lived.
Many of those ideas, being nice in theory, seriously lack any kind of real meaning and value when applied to reality.

There are a lot of intellectual murderers that have existed, who have aided and abetted in destruction of many by giving men the tools and thoughts that leads to depression and despair, and have encouraged them to believe that, base and destructive actions can be seen as good and noble ...........

Life isn't and cannot be meaningless.......... we may disagree on its meaning, but the fact that we even attempt to discuss whether or not it has any meaning, is proof of its meaningfulness............... because then, why even attempt to have the discussion at all ?
Even this young mans suicide is a testament to the meaningfulness of life, because then, why not demonstrate an indifference, to life then?
just go on living a life doing nothing purposeful, productive or fulfilling?,

All that this shows, is that for what its worth, he disliked the meaning he found in life and decided (whether logically or illogically) that death to him is a better option than the meaning or worth he saw in it.
Its nice to justify certain kind of actions, that we know in our hearts and minds cannot be logical or right, so long as we are distant observers........................I wonder if our perspectives woulds be the same if such things were closer to home.............as in, an experience by our immediate family and loved ones?.............

[zamb]

that may be true, but one would imagine that in order to judge one should have a deep understanding of the subject, so we should check that instinct sometimes, the way we check other instincts, like sexual. i can judge fashion - i am not going to judge suicide, because i don't know the depth of emotion and tragedy that may drive one to do it. but heirloom apparently does.

If I ever get a hint you were getting close to that kind of tragedy, I would drive to Brooklyn and the police would be hunting me for kidnapping you against your will..............you sure as hell would never be released until you were brought back to normalcy

People like you and I have too much to live for to even think about dying

[Mail-Moth]

Things are getting a bit more interesting.

Merz : sometimes you just can't judge. Not because it is bad manners, simply because it is not possible. Generaly speaking, in my book, judging voluntary death is senseless, because you somewhat finish blaming someone for not being in your shoes.
For the rest, there are laws.

Christianef : nobody here has read the book ; we can only assume that as a scholar he wanted to demonstrate what he is stating in the first page, that's quite expected. And I don't think anybody here hasn't understood the purpose of this book, which may be brilliant, or a big 1900 pages pile of rationalized delirium. It wouldn't be the first one of the kind.
I personally find more interesting to ask if the man's death is a logical conclusion to his work or if the latter is the alibi he needed to make his gesture possible. A demonstration about why we're induced to value life instead of death in the modern western civilization sounds far less exciting to me.

Zamb : sometimes those things happen to loved ones. You may not incline towards condemning them though, or calling them irrational, intellectually poisoned or morally weak.

[christianef]

if you havent read the work its kind of a pointless question to personally ask, no. just was pointing out (despite the title) i think the book is the punch line not the suicide i gave it a quick browse not really interesting. tons of meaningless sex is as nihilist as i go ;)

[Mail-Moth]

I think the opposite : the book makes sense only in its relation with the act ; alone it wouldn't probably be enough to raise as much questions.
Besides, your interpretation of nihilism is a quite honorable one

[Lane]

This reminds me of how the mind can be our greatest asset or our greatest enemy. At face value it seems he might have put himself through self-torment over his father's death, which might have led to him seeking validation of his tormenting feelings by researching about how there is no meaning to life.

I do agree with Sombre that its perfectly possible to not attach intrinsic value to life. The only problem is that many out there that suffer from depression are drawn to these ideas, which therefore dillutes the message presented by nihilism. However, I'm really unconvinced this was the case for this fellow.

Also, I hope mail-moth's points are driven into some of your heads

That's a shame. All of this is not worth a human life. He should've read Camus instead.

will do, as I come from the pessimistic side of existentialism as well

[Faust]

I mean, seriously, no self-respecting Jew should rely on Nietzsche to shape his philosophical outlook after the Holocaust.

[zamb]

I mean, seriously, no self-respecting Jew should rely on Nietzsche to shape his philosophical outlook after the Holocaust.

Western Philosophy and thinking has sold us a lot of dumb and stupid ideas, they have come by articulate and dedicated men who were determined to react in their dislike for the state of the society in which they lived.
Many of those ideas, being nice in theory, seriously lack any kind of real meaning and value when applied to reality.

There are a lot of intellectual murderers that have existed, who have aided and abetted in destruction of many by giving men the tools and thoughts that leads to depression and despair, and have encouraged them to believe that, base and destructive actions can be seen as good and noble ...........

I had exactly him in mind when I made this comment............there are others, but he is central to this argument.

Matter of fact, I shall read more of him, because I want to be fair to his ideas (understand them clearly) when I make any attempt to shred them to pieces

[todestrieb]

Oh please. I'm not one to care much for Nietzsche, but have you people actually read him in any kind of extensive and attentive manner, beyond the pre-assumption of 2nd-, 3rd-, 4th-hand remarks regularly imputed to him in the worst form of banality? Remarks that lamentably border on the regurgitative and reductive. Mostly born from a hermeneutical literalness and belligerence than a lateral sensitivity to the slippery nuances of his writing. To what degree he is even a card-carrying "nihilist", or his writings an espousal of "nihilism" (least of all, "pop nihilism" with its sloganistic triteness of "life is meaningless") is open to a whole world of considerable debate. And, to see in his writings proto-fascist tendencies and thereby implicating him for what came after is as bad as blaming Rick Owens for the fashun phenomena of "goth ninja", or to hold religious texts like the Bible or the Qur'an culpable for fundamentalist views, right-wing politics, and terrorism. Have we forgotten that in any reception of an idea, a philosophical idea, say, there is always another side to the dialectical equation? That is, the reader herself. Who reads? Who interprets? Who emphasizes? This is old hat, no?

It's rather unfortunate that Nietzsche, much like Marx, continues to be misunderstood and maligned in the domain of popular imagination. They are rarely read, and if and when they are read at all, most readers have already made up their minds as to what they're reading - "Communist", "Marxist", "Fascist", "Nihilist" - What the fuck does all of that mean anyway?

[doldrums]

^cosign todestrieb

especially in relation to the Jew comment.

sorry not much else to add at the moment...coming soon.

[Fade to Black]

todestrieb is on point. Nietzsche isn't a 'nihilist' in the sense that he is a positive advocate for this philosophy. I still remember vividly a job interview I had at this journalism gig a few years back where I was looked upon by the two imbeciles who gave me glances like I had authored The Anarchist Cookbook upon stating one of my favorite philosophers was Nietzsche.