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**Servo2000** · 10-09-2007, 03:23 PM

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread

[quote user="Faust"]

The Quiet American - decent. I liked the intertwining of the personal and political, and (in the Anglo world, at least), that period of history of Vietnam right before the American involvement is underexplored. [/quote]<div> </div><div>Also, Michael Caine.</div>

**Faust** · 10-09-2007, 03:34 PM

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread

[quote user="gusgusterson"]Suffered through Old Boy last week. All the debauchery, none of the emotional appeal. Oh and it was painfully stupid. I like Ken Loach films for the "this is not going to end well" raw mire because he brings a human element to the suffering. I don't think that's put well, but I'd rather watch Hostel than Lilija 4-ever and I wouldn't watch either. I constantly wonder if I can be interested in film and a bit of a prude simultaneously.
[/quote]

But, what is the effect of seeing that human suffering on a viewer sitting comfortably in a art-film theater in Soho? That's what I am asking. 

I like Loach's films, too. I thought Sweet Sixteen was a really great film, and the Wind That Shakes the Barley, too. However, they don't hit you over your head with a hammer, the way Lilija 4-ever does.

**gusgusterson** · 10-09-2007, 04:29 PM

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread

I don't know what the effect is, but I think that's the great thing about Loach, that you can and desire be taken to a very different place than your own and current surroundings. I'm usually the one suffering if I find my self in an art house theater in Soho.

**Faust** · 10-09-2007, 04:32 PM

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread

[quote user="gusgusterson"]I don't know what the effect is, but I think that's the great thing about Loach, that you can and desire be taken to a very different place than your own and current surroundings. I'm usually the one suffering if I find my self in an art house theater in Soho.
[/quote]

LOL. I meant besides the obvious!

**Seventh** · 10-09-2007, 06:55 PM

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread

[quote user="Faust"]

But, what is the effect of seeing that human suffering on a viewer sitting comfortably in a art-film theater in Soho? That's what I am asking. 

[/quote]



Interesting topic you raise Faust and Gusgusterson. I haven't seen the Lilija so I am speaking a little more generally. I think movies (art in general) that can create a sense of empathy or understanding between the viewer and viewed are very different from movies that exploit the subject or make it exotic. I watch movies to learn and understand--both about other worlds (real or imaginary) and through that myself. These include profoundly sad movies, but I feel there is a real difference between movies that exploit human suffering (real or fantasy) for shock value or to preach a set of values; and movies that try to talk about human pain as part of the complexity of living.

**gusgusterson** · 10-09-2007, 10:19 PM

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread

Brilliantly put, this is what I was clumsily grasping at by bringing up Hostel.

**Fuuma** · 10-10-2007, 12:50 PM

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread

I?d have to side with Seventh; its all about intent and the resulting work. Is Nan Goldin exploitive when she takes pictures of junkies and marginalized people? I wouldn?t say so because they are dear and near to her and looked upon as individuals with a complex life-story, not ?the essence of junkies? or something of that nature. Just like you, I could not stomach the thought of watching Moodysson?s film again but I am glad that there are some movie directors that are concerned with social problems and tackle them head on, without irony nor embellishment. On the other hand I find a movie like ?requiem for a dream? exploitive as it is just a showcase for the director?s skills, replete with flashy editing that brings attention to itself and languorous junkies that serve as half-cooked protagonist for a morality tale we?ve seen 1000 times.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>After viewing ?eastern promises? we had this conversation about movies that are just allegories for something (I?m not referring directly to Cronenberg?s film here) and I?ll be frank and say those usually end up being bad movies. I tend to prefer stories about simple human foibles (think crime and/or failed relationships), as the focus stays squarely on specific people and does not provide grand answers about what the human experience means. There are of course masterful exceptions, but if a movie has to be about more than what is on-screen, I?d rather it be a deconstruction (think Godard) than the unveiling of a monument. So tackling social issues: YES, robbing the characters of their own personality to make it all about the ideas developed: NO.

**Fuuma** · 10-10-2007, 04:36 PM

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread

The big clock/Farrow/USA/1948<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>[/B]
A media mogul?s mistress is murdered and the main protagonist is asked to find a mysterious man who was seen with her the previous night (I dare you to try to put more ?M?s in a sentence :) ); too bad that supposedly nefarious man is none other than himself. Some parts are reminiscent of the Costner vehicle where he is trapped into a building while conducting a search for, you got it, himself. Drama, humor, crime and love all wrapped into one. This film is a great mix of noir and Hitchcockian mischief.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Flic Story/Deray/France/1975<o:p></o:p>[/B]
Standard, semi-realistic drama about decent cop (Delon, wearing some great 40s outfit including a grey flannel suit with back pleats and half-belt) trying to catch a homicidal, nihilistic robber with nothing to loose (Trintignant). Watch it for the costumes or because you?re either a fan of Delon, Trintignant or Deray, otherwise give it a pass. BTW Deray?s best film is ?On me meurt que deux fois? (You only die twice) so if you?ll only watch one, find this one.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Tajja/choi-dong-hun/Korea/2006<o:p></o:p>[/B]A gambling movie sort of inspired by the famous God of Gamblers series starring Chow-Yun Fat. The remake falls short of the original though, as the over the top bids in money and especially body parts (I?ll bid my right hand!!!) aren?t matched by sufficiently staged and spectacular setups. The public doesn?t want the last match to be in a mid-size boat with 4 witnesses, he wants a floating casino and hundreds of gangster guests in tuxedos carrying deadly blades. This movie should scream ?danger, excitement, romance!!? but sorts of whispers it, and still attempt to remain a commercially viable vehicle that follows the expectation of the genre to the letter.

**Seventh** · 10-10-2007, 05:14 PM

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread

Fuuma, I thoroughly enjoy your reviews and posting about film here--your writing is always descriptive and entertaining.[Y] 

My knowledge of film is really spotty and inconsistent, my knowledge of film only goes back to around the 1960s and 70s but am pretty clueless about older films. Any recommendations for worthy classics from the 1950s and further back. Film-noir especially?

**Fuuma** · 10-10-2007, 06:50 PM

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread


I did post a few film noir reviews at some point, + a ?top 100? film list classified by decade, I?d look into that first. If you got some kind of well-stocked public library, just go there and rent films that have black and white covers with visually interesting actors and cool quotes on them like ?See a man get away with murder? and ?A chilling tale of excess, are you really sure what your loved ones want??. Those vary greatly in quality but the spirit is there.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Here?s a list of titles I like that are either pre-noirish/ foreign noirs, noirs or crime stories, made before 1960 that appeared in my top100 or maybe some reviews:<o:p></o:p>

Vampires, les<o:p></o:p>
Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, the<o:p></o:p>
Nosferatu<o:p></o:p>
Metropolis<o:p></o:p>
M<o:p></o:p>
39 steps<o:p></o:p>
Maltese falcon, the<o:p></o:p>
This gun for hire<o:p></o:p>
Corbeau, le<o:p></o:p>
Laura<o:p></o:p>
Out of the past<o:p></o:p>
Lady from <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City><st1:place>Shanghai</st1:place></st1:City>, the<o:p></o:p>
Third man, the<o:p></o:p>
Rashomon<o:p></o:p>
D.O.A.<o:p></o:p>
Touchez pas au grisbi<o:p></o:p>
Diabolique/Diaboliques, les<o:p></o:p>
Rififi/Rififi chez les hommes, du<o:p></o:p>
Bob le flambeur<o:p></o:p>
Vertigo<o:p></o:p>
Bad sleep well, the<o:p></o:p>
Heaven and hell<o:p></o:p>
Stray dog<o:p></o:p>
Odds against tomorrow<o:p></o:p>
Casque d?or<o:p></o:p>
Manchurian candidate, the<o:p></o:p>
Killing, the<o:p></o:p>
Night and the city<o:p></o:p>
Man who knew too much<o:p></o:p>
Rebecca<o:p></o:p>
À double tour<o:p></o:p>

**Seventh** · 10-10-2007, 07:16 PM

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread

great! thank you [B]. I recognize a few of those titles... I'll also search back through your previous posts, I must have missed it.

**Faust** · 10-15-2007, 02:11 PM

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread

Started watching Dead Man. Jarmusch elicits one big yawn out of me. The rare brilliant subtleties of his humor do not nearly offset the emptiness of his films. If that's the case, he's best with something episodic, like Coffee and Cigarettes. Can a Jarmusch fan give me a 101? Am I missing something?

**pounces the cat** · 10-15-2007, 03:24 PM

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread

Another good way to find great/interesting films is to poke around on the film studies course pages of prestigious universities. This is particularly useful for exploring more obscure genres that may be hard to explore without a little guidance. As an added bonus they will usually list books and articles that are almost always thought provoking. 

As far as recommendations go fuuma's list is really excellent. Also detour is great.

**gusgusterson** · 10-15-2007, 04:17 PM

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread

[quote user="Faust"]Started watching Dead Man. Jarmusch elicits one big yawn out of me. The rare brilliant subtleties of his humor do not nearly offset the emptiness of his films. If that's the case, he's best with something episodic, like Coffee and Cigarettes. Can a Jarmusch fan give me a 101? Am I missing something?
[/quote]

If you can stomach it, give Dead Man another try. It's really slow paced, but I think it's worthwhile. Everything about Dead Man seems so trite on paper and so 90s indie and it still works for me. Though I haven't seen it in years, it remains one of my favorite movies. 

Fuuma: Great list. Jean Pierre Melville is amazing. I watched Cercle Rouge last night. Alain Delon with a moustache!

**Seventh** · 10-15-2007, 07:19 PM

Re: Photography is truth. The cinema is truth twenty-four times per second: The cinema thread

[quote user="Faust"]Started watching Dead Man. Jarmusch elicits one big yawn out of me. The rare brilliant subtleties of his humor do not nearly offset the emptiness of his films. If that's the case, he's best with something episodic, like Coffee and Cigarettes. Can a Jarmusch fan give me a 101? Am I missing something?
[/quote]<DIV> </DIV><DIV>I have mixed feelings about Jarmusch, but have always loved "Down by Law" and "Stranger than Paradise", I find both to be some of the funniest and soulful of his films. His more recent movies (with the slight exception of "Ghost Dog") leave me cold.</DIV>

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