Carol Christian Poell

[Faust]

I think he was generalizing. Not that I am trying to make excuses.

[Johnny]

Yes maybe it's giving too much credit. I think he did come to the view that he couldn't do it very well (( remember reading something like this in a book I have which contains an interview with him), but perhaps not because of his own limitations; rather, it may have been because of the (perceived) limitations of the female form or female aspirations as to what they want to get from fashion

[ddohnggo]

where's the misogyny in his women's wear? i agree that it's pretty shit, but i don't get the whole hating women thing.

[Chant]

I don't understand how you can separate these things, in this case (if ever, in fashion?). He clearly designs very differently for women than for men, which makes the issue of sex unavoidable.

Did not see your erased post before, pnod, but i think we are on the same page...

It's easy, but it's professional deformation : comenting, means interpreting, for example Claude Simon's Tritypque or Kafka's Prozess etc. doesn't implicate to know their feelings. Critical writing isn't based on the writer/designer/creator's psychology (feelings, thoughts, personal history, etc.), but on his works of art, which is an objective object, which has it's own rules of construction.
The less you know about the artist, the better the comment will be (that's why critical essays on medieval litterature are the most interesting, or the less boring ones). But it's another discussion...

He clearly designs very differently for women than for men, which makes the issue of sex unavoidable.

I agree, so let's speak about the ways the clothes are cut, how they fit, or not, the feminine anatomy, and the image of the women they're related to...

[Faust]

Yes maybe it's giving too much credit. I think he did come to the view that he couldn't do it very well (( remember reading something like this in a book I have which contains an interview with him), but perhaps not because of his own limitations; rather, it may have been because of the (perceived) limitations of the female form or female aspirations as to what they want to get from fashion

Yep. It's the same limitation Atelier people hit when they first opened the store. They were under the impression that NYC women are individualistic and daring style-wise. Took them a year of dismal sales to learn that is not the case. Obviously I am not ruling out other factors, such as their buy wasn't good, etc., but given the success of their menswear, it seems a likely factor. Sorry, laika, I hope I am not sounding misogynist myself. We need more women like you :-)

[Chant]

I hope you're right. But then, I also remember reading in an interview that he thinks women only care about making their bums look smaller. A [surprisingly] dumb comment from such a thoughtful designer...

edit: maybe we need another thread for this then, johnny

It's only provocation and nothing else, imo.

[philip nod]

sometimes i just get the sense he's trying to punish women, like he doesn't respect them, like he's designing to expose their vulnerablities rather than to expose them as strong individuals. while he venerates men and designs to accentuate and embellish their strength and possiblity and power...he's balls out with men, and the narrative is much fuller. when caged its clear who the hero is. when climbing out of a window its clear. i hate to say this but its almost like matthew barney in its challenge to the male

[Johnny]

Yep. It's the same limitation Atelier people hit when they first opened the store. They were under the impression that NYC women are individualistic and daring style-wise. Took them a year of dismal sales to learn that is not the case. Obviously I am not ruling out other factors, such as their buy wasn't good, etc., but given the success of their menswear, it seems a likely factor. Sorry, laika, I hope I am not sounding misogynist myself. We need more women like you :-)

Sorry, you may have misunderstood me. I wasn't endorsing these views, just indicating that they may have been held by him. I don't agree with them at all.

[Faust]

I didn't think you were endorsing them. I am just saying they are plausible.

[Faust]

sometimes i just get the sense he's trying to punish women, like he doesn't respect them, like he's designing to expose their vulnerablities rather than to expose them as strong individuals. while he venerates men and designs to accentuate and embellish their strength and possiblity and power...he's balls out with men, and the narrative is much fuller. when caged its clear who the hero is. when climbing out of a window its clear. i hate to say this but its almost like matthew barney in its challenge to the male

Pnod, always the...

[philip nod]

lol faust
yeah, i'm bowing out of this subject now, no more provoking from me, i'm sure carol loves women, and i admire his abilty to be so brutal and be inspired by the acktionists as chant suggested. carol remains the one person in the world that i would like to interview because obviously his motives are never clear and i think in trying to deduce them the critic/the wearer becomes the fool.

[Chant]

sometimes i just get the sense he's trying to punish women, like he doesn't respect them, like he's designing to expose their vulnerablities rather than to expose them as strong individuals.

This idea is very interesting, but I would take it in a good way. Clothes aren't only made to enhance individual power, or self esteem, but also to show the weakness/vulnerabilities of a/the body.

I agree with you Pnod and Laika when I see this :

A pleated fly to show that something is definitely missing here on the woman anatomy. Very nice. Freud would have liked. But, again, CCP is Austrian, like Sigmund F. And it's nothing else than a joke imo.

But I also dont' agree with you, since I think that the pagoda shaped coat (with their narrow upper part and quite wide bottom) suit the women's anatomy very well, and, on the contrary, give to the men a strange, but nice, ambiguity. Especially on A's pictures, as if they had round bellies - bosom.

[maldoror]

there's an interesting thing happening re the display of the womenswear vs the menswear and the autonomy of the garments. while the menswear is frequently featured prominently sans model, the womenswear is never shown independently of the models (with the exception of two footwear shots). this suggests not only a loss of the sculptural quality so essential to his menswear (and perhaps an insight into the object failure of his womens designs), but also a shift in paradigm for the relationship between garment and wearer.

I don't understand this as itself misogynistic, nor do I see anything especially misogynistic about the garments themselves. I think that it's more a case of carol understanding the simple fact that men and women are different, but not knowing what to do with it. in the presentations, what we perceive as mysoginistic for women (the tape scarring and photoshop erasure) would evoke very different sentiments if they were done to male models. likewise, if it were women in cages, I doubt anyone would be arguing that this shows them as heroes.

[AKA*NYC]

CCP is an Austrian fellow. He learnt at least something from the Aktionismus

definitely one of the influences that makes me ccp

[kira]

I dont really care for much of what he has done/not done for women thus far. But I am no critic by any means and that is based on a quite rudimentary exposure to it. I have never, unfortunately seen or felt any women's pieces. I do find that because of the appreciation that I have gained for him as an artist, for the men's pieces that I have seen and felt, I would really love to have that same connection to the women's pieces.