Carol Christian Poell

[deleuze]

Just to add I look at Poell's project as the antithesis to that of Junya's. Junya is perfectly content working within the confines of traditional menswear and just making subtle alterations/derivations whereas with the womenswear he is free to create without any restrictions. I can't think of any designer that doesn't take advantage of the liberty that comes with creating womenswear. Maybe Chalayan and Margiela come closest in terms of working within a conceptual framework that critiques feminine norms but with them it seems more of an addendum relative to Carol. Even Helmut with all the androgyny, bondage straps and handcuffs didn't call into question female sexuality. In terms of Carol's menswear Muccia Prada would like to think she is doing the same thing but obviously in a much more naive way - realeasing men from their restraints is not just a matter of dressing them in tutus.

[khiev]

Poell's work certainly has some dark references but I see more of a grizzled gentleman in his clothes, one who's still compassionate and sensitive to the issues of our times. I personally believe him to be a very warm person in real life.

Supposing that Poell really did dislike women, would you say that he'd pour negative feelings into the actual process of producing women's clothes? Or perhaps he lashes out only on the concept board but still remains a master craftsman in the production room? Perhaps both? Maybe his hatred is a more sophisticated kind and doesnt prevent him from objectively criticizing them.

What about his women's sizes, do you imagine him to scornfully go about producing them? They're definitely easier for him to make because there arent many tweaks at all. These are the type of women who accept and deeply appreciate his sense of aesthetic and technique without the burden of all the stylized superficial crap seen on women's runway that he seems to despise. I dont think he'd hate these women.

I may also be biased as to how he views women in general because it's obvious to me how some women, like the Lift lady among others, seem to have very good relationships with him. Maybe he just likes only a select number of women although I'm not inclined to believe it to be true.

this is why i think that he hates them. poell seems to be the type of guy that explores his hatred. lets not forget, poell work is fucking dark as fuck.
--

[soultek]

I may also be biased as to how he views women in general because it's obvious to me how some women, like the Lift lady among others, seem to have very good relationships with him. Maybe he just likes only a select number of women although I'm not inclined to believe it to be true.

Just because he hates women doesn't mean he can't be friendly with them, or even be married to one.

I think the point here is that if we are to look at his work as art, and him an artist, then exploring his personal feelings about the opposite sex through his work is quite honest I think. Despite what one feels about his clothes for women, shouldn't his exploration be lauded?

[eaglewood]

It would be interesting to know which art galleries have CCP in their collections. I would not be surprised if the galleries that have collected CCP have collected women's clothes.

If that guess is right that might say something about his work as art or it might say something about benefactors who donate to art galleries.

[soultek]

This previously posted interview is quite relevant to the discussion.

Note that he directly claims he ISN'T an artist but a designer and artisan (clearly making the distinction).

http://stylezeitgeist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4850&highlight=poell+interview

[Fade to Black]

this is why i think that he hates them. poell seems to be the type of guy that explores his hatred. lets not forget, poell work is fucking dark as fuck.
--

As I see more Poell, I've come to interpret it slightly differently. It looks dark, even menacing, but I think it is functioning more on a purely aesthetic level rather than delivering something very conceptually perverse. I don't mean necessarily in the presentation or treatment of the garments, yes some of the concepts behind the construction of them can be seen as quite twisted, but some of the images presented provoke a visual reaction but looking at it for a while, it doesn't really penetrate much deeper. Mind you, this is my interpretation, the artist's intention may very well come from something quite burrowed in his inner recesses.

Number (N)ine on the other hand, I find to be more psychologically disturbing and challenging when considering the brand vision as a whole, despite the sometimes unassuming exterior of the pieces, especially when presented as standalone. Another one I can think of is Margiela

Khiev makes a good point, the Lift lady has a good relationship with him, and based on how I see her incorporate the clothes into her lifestyle as well as her business, she makes everything seem much more approachable.

[tjoek]

I agree.

His work is getting darker than earlier seasons, nevertheless I found that his style is evolving and remains true to his ideal. I always admire people like him that does not want to be controlled by the market or majority.

Using my own language, he is an idealist genius.
________
silver surfer review

[lowrey]

I may also be biased as to how he views women in general because it's obvious to me how some women, like the Lift lady among others, seem to have very good relationships with him. Maybe he just likes only a select number of women although I'm not inclined to believe it to be true.

I think this is way too literal.. isn't this whole concept of "disliking women" a speculation of this discussion, or has he actually said this directly? and regardless of whether or not its true, I wouldn't take it to the extent of saying he literally hates all women. we are still speaking from a design point of view, no?

[Chant]

I'd point out firstly the pun (good or bad one ? I'm not familiar enough with the English language to come to a decision) : MALE / FE-MALE. Obviously, woman is definited through her relation to man, more : a FE-MALE is a (kind of) MALE.
But what kind of male ?

Secondly, the picture (thanks Laika) :

Pubes and sex have been grossly erased (the job could have been done "better" easily). So it focuses the look, catches the eye, but don't allow to see what should be there.


Thirdly, my friend Sigmund :

Ein junger Mann hat einen sehr deutlichen Traum, der ihn an bewusst gebliebene Phantasien seiner Knabenjahre mahnt : Er befindet sich in einem Sommerhotel, irrt sich in der Zimmernummer und kommt in einen Raum, in dem sich eine ältere Dame und ihre zwei Töchter entkleiden, um zu Bette zu gehen. Er setzt fort : "Dann sind einige Lücken im Traum, da fehlt etwas, und am Ende war ein Man im Zimmer, der mich hinauswerfen wollte, mit dem ich ringen musste".

It's a patient's dream : a youg boy is in a hotel, in sumertime, looses his way and ends in a room, where an old lady and her two daughters are undressing, to go to bed. But the dreamer interrupts the narrative : "There're some gaps in the dream, something is missing there".

The picture shows a dressing/undressing woman, and "something's missing there" too. But, as in a dream, the response, or the following part of the narrative, has been shifted. What kind of shoes is she wearing ? Slitted shoes, where the slit looks like a scar.
Means there's no positive recognition of the sexual difference : fe-male sex is seen as a castrated male one. The only alternative is phallic/castrated, 1/0, or... black/white (colour of the skirt contrasting with the finger's one).

Conclusion ? CCP's vision of the women is a four years old boy's one, and a female is a castrated male. This could be a possible explanation for the misogynistic feeling his for women designed clothes give.

But he's a very cultivated boy too, who knows the Italian paintings and fresco's history (the wall behind her).

[Please don't take this message too seriously ]

[khiev]

soultek & mike, I agree that we should look at his work from a design standpoint and then speculate. It's more fair to CCP but like I said, I'm biased because of the women that I know who happen to be on good terms with the man.

Mike, I also didnt speculate that CCP hates women, on the contrary, I was trying to prove otherwise.

[osn19]

Let's hope that there soon will be more real news about the new collection. And this infernal speculation and personal interpretation blablahs, which don't lead anywhere, will fade.

[Chant]

Let's hope that there soon will be more real news about the new collection. And this infernal speculation and personal interpretation blablahs, which don't lead anywhere, will fade.

How to translate "anti-intellectualisme primaire" in English ?
Oh yeah : "osn19".

[Fuuma]

How to translate "anti-intellectualisme primaire" in English ?
Oh yeah : "osn19".

Bang dans la gueule!

[justine]

khiev -I really dont think that Poell would ever bother to purposely display entire collections for females just to show how much he hates them
this is why i think that he hates them. poell seems to be the type of guy that explores his hatred. lets not forget, poell work is fucking dark as fuck.
--

I agree on most of the above.
My $.02 interpretation is that CCP doesn't hate women as much as he either (1) doesn't understand the female body, or (2) is not that interested in it; hence the low production.

I personally believe him to be a very warm person in real life.

I'm not sure what 'warm' means here, but I'm a believe he's definitely not your friendly cool guy type; reading his interview and from, well, hearsay (lol).

[justine]

Bang dans la gueule!

More of a "bof" for me.