Carol Christian Poell

[Chinorlz]

Godwin's law proven true yet again, page 414...

Absolutely hilarious.


I see no Nazi connection in Carol's clothing and even very minimal military influence in his designs overall. He's always spent a predominance of his interest in the materials and treatments over anything else. Short of his brief explorations years ago into the realm of gravid women and corpulent men, themes of collections have not been about history or people but of techniques, materials etc.

[copacetic]

I'd say that his relation to the Nazi period - and aesthetic, since Nazism is decorum - is not politically correct, but artistically/psychologically correct, since it is a combination of fascination and repulsion - or ironical quoting ?
About fascination : a "sharp fitted silhouette with a quite high waist" ? Hum... The definition can be applied to CCP's blazers as to Kurt W.'s uniform above.

Even the typical scarstitch/overlock collar, linked usually to the classic shirt collar, collar can be reffered to the nazi uniform :

And the new shape of the square belt reminds me the specific outline of the helmet...

All very interesting stuff, and I do see the aesthetic parallels that you've curated very carefully...thanks for that...I think you and Deleuze have made a strong case.

But to play devil's advocate: does our seeing Nazi imagery in Poell's clothing tell us more about Poell or more about ourselves?

I.e., who's the one still coping with Nazism in Austria? Poell the designer or we the critics?

For instance, in art history, the tendency is to pigeonhole all German postwar art into a certain category..."Ah, the artists, they must all be referring to the dissolution of Nazism," and though they often are, many aren't...at least not consciously.

Or the contrary is true...postwar French art...."Ah, this art all must be related to the victory in the second world war..." A colleague of mine is working on a book now about how the category of postwar art in France is a misnomer...it neglects that France quickly thrust itself into another war, this time in Algeria. So all this art that historians were looking at as being "postwar" was in fact "in wartime," and the artists were referencing the latter, not the former.

Devil's advocacy in short: just because he's Austrian and makes sharply tailored clothes and admires the actionists doesn't mean that he's referencing the Nazis.

[Chinorlz]

All very interesting stuff, and I do see the aesthetic parallels that you've curated very carefully...thanks for that...I think you and Deleuze have made a strong case.

But to play devil's advocate: does our seeing Nazi imagery in Poell's clothing tell us more about Poell or more about ourselves?

I.e., who's the one still coping with Nazism in Austria? Poell the designer or we the critics?

For instance, in art history, the tendency is to pigeonhole all German postwar art into a certain category..."Ah, the artists, they must all be referring to the dissolution of Nazism," and though they often are, many aren't...at least not consciously.

Or the contrary is true...postwar French art...."Ah, this art all must be related to the victory in the second world war..." A colleague of mine is working on a book now about how the category of postwar art in France is a misnomer...it neglects that France quickly thrust itself into another war, this time in Algeria. So all this art that historians were looking at as being "postwar" was in fact "in wartime," and the artists were referencing the latter, not the former.

Devil's advocacy in short: just because he's Austrian and makes sharply tailored clothes and admires the actionists doesn't mean that he's referencing the Nazis.

Bingo.

Sharply tailored clothing has connections with no history in particular. High waisted pants are classic of many cultures and fashionable eras (lower waisted jeans and pants are a relatively new movement occurring in the last decade or two).

A belt with a L shape to the leather does not connotate a German military helmet's side brim.

Like with any art/thing in the world we can wax romantic and derive from it just about anything we want. People beat a dead horse in a museum all the time and give others credit beyond what was initially imagined. We see what we want to see, we hope that what we derive meaning from the creator of said item intended it. We want that connection and to "discover". It's like meeting an actor who has starred in roles of moves that have changed viewers' lives... ultimately it's probably boring and doesn't live up to some impossible expectation.

Not everything has to be deep or philosophical. A taped seam holds things together while letting you see the construction. That's about it.

[kunk75]

helmut and raf played far more heavily in the military fetish arena in my opinion. the attempted poell connection seems to conflate the gruesome nature of their acts with their dress code.

[copacetic]

Like with any art/thing in the world we can wax romantic and derive from it just about anything we want. People beat a dead horse in a museum all the time and give others credit beyond what was initially imagined.

I still think that us seeing Nazi imagery in Poell's clothing tells us a lot about ourselves...from a critical perspective, it's still valuable...if Christian makes a case that there are aesthetic parallels, then you can really deny him it...do you know what I mean? If we as critics see it there, and make the case, then it's there.

I'm an art historian by trade, and so I'm perhaps more sympathetic to the critic than others are...but art lives through the creator and through the sensitive critic.

[BECOMING-INTENSE]

Poell is not a symbolist. He is more of a chiropractor.

[Chinorlz]

I still think that us seeing Nazi imagery in Poell's clothing tells us a lot about ourselves...from a critical perspective, it's still valuable...if Christian makes a case that there are aesthetic parallels, then you can really deny him it...do you know what I mean? If we as critics see it there, and make the case, then it's there.

I'm an art historian by trade, and so I'm perhaps more sympathetic to the critic than others are...but art lives through the creator and through the sensitive critic.

Certainly it would be valuable to that individual (ie-what drives prices of art). I just see parallels to Nazi-era regalia as ill placed and based on stereotypes of what the general public things of Nazis (strict, tight clothes, severe, making all kinds of stuff out of human parts, eating babies etc.). Nazi's have come to stand for evil of all sorts down to the devil incarnate and hence Godwin's law holds true every time we venture down a path using words like "severely tailored" "despises women" "blood" etc.

[hallucination]

Actually the consistent references to abattoirs and meat hooks and blood, not to mention the twisted aesthetics of treated skins and human hair, or experimental stitching redolent of surgery, does open Poell up to our reading of his work through a filter of Nazism/Holocaust, so it is not as hilarious as it sounds - I think some of these recent critiques here are well-founded and considered, at last it is has been said out loud. However the truth is probably located somewhere between Adolf Hitler and the Von Trapps.

To be sure Poell is not a cuddler of cows and calves, nor suppliers and customers alike, and the suppressed disdain/violence in his psychology, whether he knows it or not, can appear to be all at one with the austere 'Nazism' of his cuts. This is all said as a great fan of his work - which remains fascinating. Whether it is a critique of Nazism or a channeling of it, or just fantasy lederhosen, is up to you. What it says about me as the wearer might be scary...perhaps there is a latent Nazi in all of us? Or should I be humming Edelweiss in an off-key?

[Chinorlz]

Actually the consistent references to abattoirs and meat hooks and blood, not to mention the twisted aesthetics of treated skins and human hair, or experimental stitching redolent of surgery, does open Poell up to our reading of his work through a filter of Nazism/Holocaust, so it is not as hilarious as it sounds - I think some of these recent critiques here are well-founded and considered, at last it is has been said out loud. To be sure Poell is not a cuddler of cows and calves, nor suppliers and customers alike, and the suppressed disdain/violence in his psychology, whether he knows it or not, is all at one with the austere 'Nazism' of his cuts. This is all said as a great fan of his work - which remains fascinating. Whether it is a critique of Nazism or a channeling of it, is up to you. What it says about me as the wearer might be scary...perhaps there is a latent Nazi in all of us?

Perhaps MBD has an opinion.

Why would this default one to Nazi's? Abbatoirs are where animals are killed; existing millennia before Nazi era and extant now. Meat hooks are the same and have zero Nazi connotation. Experimental stitching? Surgery/Sutures do not equate Nazism. Human skin and hair do not either. To head off the potential that someone would bring up the oft-mentioned human skin lampshade story it has never been conclusive or even confirmed to exist.

By linking Nazism to Carol's work provides one that personal fascination... a personal (if erroneous) linkage of Carol and the macabre (an indisputable linkage) to another subject that is macabre; The third reich. It's just too easy and unlikely. You can draw parallels (erroneous or otherwise) between just about anything and Nazis.

[copacetic]

Actually the consistent references to abattoirs and meat hooks and blood, not to mention the twisted aesthetics of treated skins and human hair, or experimental stitching redolent of surgery, does open Poell up to our reading of his work through a filter of Nazism/Holocaust...

Perhaps Faust has an opinion?

But we wouldn't be talking about this if he weren't Austrian. That's what is sort of absurd to me.

[deleuze]

. . . and Hermann Nitsch is just an ebullient fat man who gets off on double rainbows and coloring the world with lustrous pigments

[hallucination]

You are choosing to look the other way. CCP was born in Linz in 1966 - this is the Austrian town considered home by Adolf Hitler. Don't tell me you as a thinking artist wouldn't spend a lifetime reacting, in whatever quiet, smouldering, resentful way, to that? And if you happened to be a thinking tailor, in what direction could your work go...?

[Chinorlz]

You are choosing to look the other way. CCP was born in Linz in 1966 - this is the Austrian town considered home by Adolf Hitler. Don't tell me you as a thinking artist you wouldn't spend a lifetime reacting, in whatever quiet, smouldering, resentful way, to that?

I wouldn't be able to say one way or the other as I don't know much more than that about his upbringing. But I would not imagine that any Nazi-eque influence that may or may not be present in his design (conscious or unconscious) would be presented in inaccurate stereotypes/depictions of Nazi's as a whole.

I still maintain that I don't see any 3rd reich influence in his work. His work has always been quite literal and visual. He does very in-your-face construction and designing which often can just be taken at face value. Delving deeper into it for some deep historical meaning leaves one empty handed. This is not a bad thing at all. Not everything by everyone has to mean something deep or take little hints and themes from a complex array of sources.

Think about the Matrix trilogy. As the movies came out, the discussion/debates/theories became incredibly complex, philosophical and deep and then the 3rd one came out and it was... what it was.

Circular discussion perhaps as again, we pull what we want out of art almost regardless of what the creator intended. Human nature makes us want something MORE, something DEEPER. We want it to mean something and are not satisfied with "here it is. it is what it is."

[hallucination]

Sharply tailored clothing has connections with no history in particular.


Try Beau Brummell.

[copacetic]

What I reject is this whole idea that we're all "looking the other way." My god, it's right in front of our eyes! Linz! Finally, someone dared speak the name...

It's not like Linz is some obscure hamlet in the Austrian countryside.

Had Poell been born in Salzburg, would we be looking for references to Mozart? Eh, maybe, maybe not...

Every city in Austria was touched by Nazism in some significant way.

In full agreement with Chinorlz here...