Carol Christian Poell

[seenmy]

every piece of woven fabric has a selvedge,its not a mark of quality or anything in itself it is by product of the fabrics construction.

what dose differ is the quality of the material that go in to the weave and the consideration of how they work together, what are they used for how do they react etc, this is where the work starts the hours and partnership with specialist mills, pushing them to develop fabrics to fulfil a purpose or an effect, this is where your money is going to before it even gets on the cutting table,making sure a fabric is woven at a specific width is un economic from a time perspective, unusual material mixes also has the same impact on time and investment.

but it is these first steps in material that further bring the construction to that next level on the finished product.

[Macro]

E, yes it was witty, and silly enough to warrant a little sass. :D

Mizzar, please consider what you're saying. 'it costs so much because it's poell.' why, yes. and no. like lowrey said. if that's a problem for you, if you don't wish to support his business or his ideas, then don't buy into it. no one's asking you to spend your money anywhere.

but if you're commenting on his concept and technique as 'mumbo jumbo' and comparing it to a levis selvage denim jacket, it is evident you have not yet enough understanding of the differences that lay between the two. now, i'm in no way attempting to chastize you for your opinion, to which you are more than welcome. but what I, and i'm sure many others, ask of you is this: educate yourself as best you can if you're willing to contribute, and prove to me that, while you have done the homework, your disagreement with CCP comes from a place of genuine interest. after all, isn't genuine interest why you're here, and what we share in common? isn't it the idea that captures you?

[mizzar]

every piece of woven fabric has a selvedge,its not a mark of quality or anything in itself it is by product of the fabrics construction.

You are not quite right here, edge of a woven fabric is not always selvedge, it's really must be produced in certain way to achieve it.

what dose differ is the quality of the material that go in to the weave and the consideration of how they work together, what are they used for how do they react etc, this is where the work starts the hours and partnership with specialist mills, pushing them to develop fabrics to fulfil a purpose or an effect, this is where your money is going to before it even gets on the cutting table,making sure a fabric is woven at a specific width is un economic from a time perspective, unusual material mixes also has the same impact on time and investment.

in my post i addressed that phase as most hard, and most costly in production\development. So we can agree on this part.

but it is these first steps in material that further bring the construction to that next level on the finished product.

that... is debatable.
How i see, any step in production by itself just can't bring finished product to next level. One step even be it incredible, just not enough.

[mizzar]

Mizzar, please consider what you're saying. 'it costs so much because it's poell.' why, yes. and no. like lowrey said. if that's a problem for you, if you don't wish to support his business or his ideas, then don't buy into it. no one's asking you to spend your money anywhere.

Please show me where am i stating that CCP prices is bad, or that product is not good enough for the money.

but if you're commenting on his concept and technique as 'mumbo jumbo' and comparing it to a levis selvage denim jacket, it is evident you have not yet enough understanding of the differences that lay between the two.

Just saying that "selvedge=prices goes up because its selvedge-pricey in construction and " is not true enough. Because you need meticulously constructed patterns even
if you don't use selvedge, you still need to do research and development, to work with fabric producers etc.
That from where levi's jacket comparison.

now, i'm in no way attempting to chastize you for your opinion, to which you are more than welcome. but what I, and i'm sure many others, ask of you is this: educate yourself as best you can if you're willing to contribute, and prove to me that, while you have done the homework, your disagreement with CCP comes from a place of genuine interest.

Dear sir, if i may, i do know somethings about pattern-making, sewing, clothing, etc.
I don't need to prove something to you.
I call like i see it, i saw some ma+ boots with 2 cm nail sticking from inside (bootmaker forgot to cut it and nobody bothered to check before selling them), and don't let me start on RO "quality".
But i had no long-lasting experience with CCP, so i'm talking only about what i know and can stand by my word from my 10 or so hours of CCP encounters.

after all, isn't genuine interest why you're here, and what we share in common? isn't it the idea that captures you?

I do like CCP leathers, they fit me.
And i don't like CCP shoes, they hurt me.
I like his jackets, they are constructed so good, no word is enough.
and i fear his pants, so fragile yet so smart(a lot of brains to even think about their construction).
I'm here because i'm young patternmaker(education)(надеюсь технологом стать возможно)
who works with clothes and people.

You may don't like it but the quality in niche clothing decreases every season.
We must not excuse this "blah blah treatment bla bla blah and thats why it will rip appart in like 2-3 wears, refund? Go fuck yourself its avantgarde/artisanal/made from people foreskin".
Because in a couple seasons our basics will shred on hangers, and shoes would be good for one walk/

[Fuuma]

Poell prices are ridiculous and the quality of construction (you know, number of stitches, handwork, prices for the untreated hides, clean trimmings, etc.) isn't really impressive. If you wanna buy cause the construction is amazing and the fabrics are pricey just go to some mid-level luxury Italian rtw suitmaker and you'll get a more impressive product according to those standards. Of course if you weren't buying Poell because of the look (body distorsion and negation, affront to bourgeois good taste, art world references, references to leather has coming from living entities, etc.) and the absurd elevation of technique for it's own sake (cutting, weird materials, distressing, tech-wear inspirations, thematic seasonal changes according to those aspects) you totally missed the point so it doesn't matter.

I say this as someone who likes looking at Poell's work and consider him the most accomplished of the "SZ designers" but won't really wear any of his stuff again.

[BSR]

Poell prices are ridiculous and the quality of construction (you know, number of stitches, handwork, prices for the untreated hides, clean trimmings, etc.) isn't really impressive. If you wanna buy cause the construction is amazing and the fabrics are pricey just go to some mid-level luxury Italian rtw suitmaker and you'll get a more impressive product according to those standards. Of course if you weren't buying Poell because of the look (body distorsion and negation, affront to bourgeois good taste, art world references, references to leather has coming from living entities, etc.) and the absurd elevation of technique for it's own sake (cutting, weird materials, distressing, tech-wear inspirations, thematic seasonal changes according to those aspects) you totally missed the point so it doesn't matter.

I say this as someone who likes looking at Poell's work and consider him the most accomplished of the "SZ designers" but won't really wear any of his stuff again.

what you suggest here actually is that contributors to this thread (re-)read Barthes on the difference between grammar and style

[mizzar]

2Fuuma: Comparing Poell construction with Obscur, например :)
there is no need to take somebody from another field of work :)
Suits from Italians are suits from Italians.

Poell prices are ridiculous and the quality of construction (you know, number of stitches, handwork, prices for the untreated hides, clean trimmings, etc.) isn't really impressive. If you wanna buy cause the construction is amazing and the fabrics are pricey just go to some mid-level luxury Italian rtw suitmaker and you'll get a more impressive product according to those standards. Of course if you weren't buying Poell because of the look (body distorsion and negation, affront to bourgeois good taste, art world references, references to leather has coming from living entities, etc.) and the absurd elevation of technique for it's own sake (cutting, weird materials, distressing, tech-wear inspirations, thematic seasonal changes according to those aspects) you totally missed the point so it doesn't matter.

I say this as someone who likes looking at Poell's work and consider him the most accomplished of the "SZ designers" but won't really wear any of his stuff again.

[Macro]

Mizzar, if you care for long-lasting, high-quality garments, stay away from poell. In fact, stay away from the whole aesthetic and stick to industrial made, mass produced clothing. I never once said that poell's garments are built to last, oh, what is that bullshit term around here... forever?

As for sourcing your reference to the cost of poell, no, you didn't say it overtly. but you implied it by commenting on the mere priceiness of the garment, which I honestly don't give two shits about. If you can't afford it, tough break, kid. It's a weak argument. haters wanna hate. ballers wanna ball.

Also, there's a small aspect of Poells collections that you may be overlooking, something I alluded to but did not come out and just sing, so here it is. Over the fit, the fabric... you are also paying for the idea. And the idea is worth something, isn't it? If you can't appreciate another man's idea than maybe this aesthetic isn't your forte. Maybe you should stick to the other well-fitting miasma of clothing lines out there. Because if you don't respect and appreciate an idea, than why the fuck are you even here?

I don't really care if you are a pattern maker, or even a good one, there's plenty of those out there. Of course I want my clothes to be well made and have nice fabrics. And they better damn well fit me. But that's fundamental. That's what someone like CCP understands as foundational knowledge prior to building concept. Shit's a given around here. And yeah, every one of these brands fails, at some point. I'll go so far to say that Poell, above all others, fails more frequently. It's a laboratory for experiments, after all.

Are you familiar with Kiton? If not, you should be. Their considered to be one of, if not the, exemplar of well constructed and artisinal tailored clothing companies based in Naples. I have spend considerable time handling this companies products, as well as their competition (Brioni, etc) and you know what? Kiton is not made to last. It is, for what it's worth, the ultimate in luxury, as it is incredibly fragile. It's meticulously well made in manners that shit all over companies like poell from a pure construction standpoint. but it disintegrates, falls apart, probably faster than brioni, or its other competitors. And you know what? It does absolutely nothing to damage their reputation. In fact, it breeds even more hunger by those who can afford it. For the lifestyle it requires rests in a stratosphere that most men do not, cannot, and will not live. And that's something that showcases true luxury.

But what's with the focus on eternity? Clothing isn't an investment, it's utilitarian at the end of the day. It's not a goddamn car or a house. A lot of people new to this aethetic miss the most important fact of the aesthetic... that it's a look, based on an ideology. it's not buying an insurance policy, for quality standards or aesthetic longevity. It's fashion, like anything else is fashion. But a niche, for sure, that requires an arrival at before developing an appreciation and comprehensive understanding for. So don't think that coming at me with arguments of longevity, permanence, cost per wear, is of any real relevance to my ears. There's no need to excuse the disintegration of a poell jacket, because it's just a jacket. It's not armor, even though it feels that way.

That's it. I'm done. Oh SZ.

[Faust]

Poell prices are ridiculous and the quality of construction (you know, number of stitches, handwork, prices for the untreated hides, clean trimmings, etc.) isn't really impressive. If you wanna buy cause the construction is amazing and the fabrics are pricey just go to some mid-level luxury Italian rtw suitmaker and you'll get a more impressive product according to those standards. Of course if you weren't buying Poell because of the look (body distorsion and negation, affront to bourgeois good taste, art world references, references to leather has coming from living entities, etc.) and the absurd elevation of technique for it's own sake (cutting, weird materials, distressing, tech-wear inspirations, thematic seasonal changes according to those aspects) you totally missed the point so it doesn't matter.

I say this as someone who likes looking at Poell's work and consider him the most accomplished of the "SZ designers" but won't really wear any of his stuff again.

Fuuma, we are about to coin something immortal here - technique for technique's sake. So, Poell is a modernist? YOU LOSE!

[garbage_queen]

"I'm fed up with a system in which the artist has no steady income is forced to sell his talent button-factory owner"

[BSR]

Are you familiar with Kiton? If not, you should be. Their considered to be one of, if not the, exemplar of well constructed and artisinal tailored clothing companies based in Naples. I have spend considerable time handling this companies products, as well as their competition (Brioni, etc) and you know what? Kiton is not made to last. It is, for what it's worth, the ultimate in luxury, as it is incredibly fragile. It's meticulously well made in manners that shit all over companies like poell from a pure construction standpoint. but it disintegrates, falls apart, probably faster than brioni, or its other competitors. And you know what? It does absolutely nothing to damage their reputation. In fact, it breeds even more hunger by those who can afford it. For the lifestyle it requires rests in a stratosphere that most men do not, cannot, and will not live. And that's something that showcases true luxury.

But what's with the focus on eternity? Clothing isn't an investment, it's utilitarian at the end of the day. It's not a goddamn car or a house. A lot of people new to this aethetic miss the most important fact of the aesthetic... that it's a look, based on an ideology. it's not buying an insurance policy, for quality standards or aesthetic longevity. It's fashion, like anything else is fashion. But a niche, for sure, that requires an arrival at before developing an appreciation and comprehensive understanding for. So don't think that coming at me with arguments of longevity, permanence, cost per wear, is of any real relevance to my ears. There's no need to excuse the disintegration of a poell jacket, because it's just a jacket. It's not armor, even though it feels that way.

That's it. I'm done. Oh SZ.

that's quite an effort to point out the old difference between bourgeoisie and aristocracy. but i agree with you, in the discussions over quality/timelessness/wearability etc, many people on SZ tend to apply the standards of bourgeoisie to the garments they buy and collect.

[Fuuma]

what you suggest here actually is that contributors to this thread (re-)read Barthes on the difference between grammar and style

I hadn't thought of it that way but that's exactly it.

As for durability well Kiton super 180 fabric is both fragile and extremely luxurious, durability and quality of construction aren't the same thing, delicate shoes exquisitely build using traditional french techniques won't be as tough as thick CCP boots, they're still made to a much higher standard of construction and finishing (and are probably easier to repair and re-sole).

[Fuuma]

that's quite an effort to point out the old difference between bourgeoisie and aristocracy. but i agree with you, in the discussions over quality/timelessness/wearability etc, many people on SZ tend to apply the standards of bourgeoisie to the garments they buy and collect.

I agree, however it is important to understand that when it comes to interior decoration and garments, the aristocratic position of the 19-20th century isn't so much about rejecting long lasting garments as it is about inheriting your father's clothing and abode and accepting that the items in question will show their age. Bourgeois thinking demands items to look new and proper while aristocratic thinking chastized men who would buy new clothes or redecorate instead of spending on the important stuff like horses, gambling and mistresses.

[Fuuma]

Fuuma, we are about to coin something immortal here - technique for technique's sake. So, Poell is a modernist? YOU LOSE!

What do I lose? If this is about modernism and post-modernism yet again it is important to be reminded that post-modernism is an addition and a comment on modernism, not just an opposition to it. In fact technique for technique's sake is a post-modern comment on modernism. I am not claiming by this that other thinkers haven't reflected on "technique for technique's sake" or that Poell is a post-modernist or a modernist or whatnot. I don't look as tool of analysis as necessarily excluding each others but as angles to look at the object of analysis or the discourse surrounding certain topics.

[Faust]

Are you familiar with Kiton? If not, you should be. Their considered to be one of, if not the, exemplar of well constructed and artisinal tailored clothing companies based in Naples. I have spend considerable time handling this companies products, as well as their competition (Brioni, etc) and you know what? Kiton is not made to last. It is, for what it's worth, the ultimate in luxury, as it is incredibly fragile. It's meticulously well made in manners that shit all over companies like poell from a pure construction standpoint. but it disintegrates, falls apart, probably faster than brioni, or its other competitors. And you know what? It does absolutely nothing to damage their reputation. In fact, it breeds even more hunger by those who can afford it. For the lifestyle it requires rests in a stratosphere that most men do not, cannot, and will not live. And that's something that showcases true luxury.

WORD! I've always said as much - when expensive shit falls apart = luxury.

WORD on the rest.

WORD!