Thom Browne

[zamb]

As a designer you can't rely on selling in N America. Too dispersed, too few shops, too small of a market. You can't produce here because it's expensive and hard to produce at the same quality as Japan or Europe. Shops in Europe and Japan then have to pay customs and shipping on goods. By the time you get around to marking the stock up to retail the price has ballooned to an astronomical level compared to European and Japanese designers. As a talented designer creating something that's not meant to be mass-consumed it's just not worth it to produce in N America and that has nothing to do with talent...

I am not sure i am understanding the points you are trying to make here. could you elaborate a bit more?

[Casius]

Meaning it's not worth it for International retailers to carry his line because it winds up being even more expensive than it already is. Or at least, that's what I think Jon was saying (partially).
I don't agree on the quality thing though; Thom's quality is amazing! Sure there might be some things Japan or places in Europe do better (knits in parts of Europe, technical fabrics in Japan) but Thom cranks out a great product and I appreciate that he produces most of it here in the US.
Jon is right though; If Thom wants to stay afloat or better yet, expand, he has to be able to sell more Internationally as that's where the market is for fashion.

[mesh]

Right on about America trying to push their own, DESPERATELY. We have nothing, I mean - NOTHING - compared to what Europe and Japan can offer.

Agree completely but hey we've got ervell.

[mass]

I think a design team like AsFour was doing some things that if allowed to progress and supported in the right way, could have been seen in the vein of Chalyan or Watanabe, but they were treated as some kind of circus act here

agreed... i think they are unjustly overlooked and underrated, but i think it's good and suprising how they are capable of staying idiosyncratic.

[Jon]

I am not sure i am understanding the points you are trying to make here. could you elaborate a bit more?

Not 100% sure if what I said applies to Thom Browne (really was making a generalization of North American designers) but because of the costs involved with being a designer and the way the industry works (paying people for PR work, paying for shows, paying for samples all with the expectation you'll make the money back later) it is incredibly difficult to survive (longer than a flash in the pan - which is what Thom Browne and its aesthetic are...).

Because the market in North America is so small you need to sell outside of NA, where you are at a disadvantage due to the all criteria I mentioned above if you stay in North America. That's why all the talent either leaves or commercializes.

3 Big Disadvantages to being in North America/Why we can't keep talent

#1. Smaller market for high fashion compared to Japan and Europe
#2. Higher production costs/harder to meet the same quality standards as other top labels based in Europe and Japan (fabric is usually imported; few factories in North America work at that standard; hiring good workers)
#3. Shipping across America in order to reach essentially 2 markets (cost goes to retailers and passed on to customers or results in a slimmer profit margin) and shipping to Europe and Japan (big markets you need; shipping and customs are passed on to retailers who have the option to carry a local designer who offers a greater mark-up)

How #3. Feedbacks #2.: High cost of production + low profit in-store (hypothetical product regularly goes to sale price, the norm for the industry - now add in business cycling effects); stores scale back orders; product becomes even more expensive (Average Per Unit Cost Increases); designer has to make some tough decisions...

[Fuuma]

You guys forgot a key element (BTW the NA high end market is much bigger than you guys think). A lot of the American elites wearing fashion pieces like the romance and prestige of an European or Japanese garment, NA designers just don't have that mystique.

[Faust]

I don't know, Fuuma - I wear the shit out of my Cloak. I think it's more about the zeitgeist here that Zam already talked about.

Rick is indeed an interesting case - who knows where he'd be without the Italian backers?

Jon, I have to disagree with you. The US is 20% of luxury market - hefty by any standards. We are still willing to pay a huge fucking premium for Euro/Japanese goods given all the same factors + shitty exchange rate.

[Fuuma]

I don't know, Fuuma - I wear the shit out of my Cloak. I think it's more about the zeitgeist here that Zam already talked about.

Rick is indeed an interesting case - who knows where he'd be without the Italian backers?

Jon, I have to disagree with you. The US is 20% of luxury market - hefty by any standards. We are still willing to pay a huge fucking premium for Euro/Japanese goods given all the same factors + shitty exchange rate.

Are you the typical luxury buyer? Let's say I work at Christie's Imma wear Prada not TB.

[Jon]

Jon, I have to disagree with you. The US is 20% of luxury market - hefty by any standards. We are still willing to pay a huge fucking premium for Euro/Japanese goods given all the same factors + shitty exchange rate.

Does 20% luxury market include accessories? every dime spent on Louis Vuitton, Prada, Gucci, Versace, D&G, Armani, Gucci, Marc Jacobs, etc.?

I want to emphasize that I mentioned that talented North American designers that stay in North America will usually have to commercialize their product to appeal to those markets. (Fuuma made a good point about the allure of the European and Japanese mystique as a factor deciding American spending, and how often do we hear "European Styling" as a pervading dictum for high fashion/modern style in advertising and marketing?)

I was surprised that N. America comprises 20% of luxury goods spending but I don't think that it gives a very good idea of what "luxury goods" is being consumed. New York is but an esoteric microcosm, and Los Angeles a very different animal indeed. And these are the 2 big markets in N. America, a very large landmass with a comparatively small population... But this is only my begrudged perspective from my former position in the industry.

[Faust]

Are you the typical luxury buyer? Let's say I work at Christie's Imma wear Prada not TB.

Definitely not. I don't think of myself as a luxury buyer at all, actually.

Jon, I don't have the breakdown of this figure - just something I remember from reading.

[zamb]

Thom Browne’s CEO and CFO Have Left, But He’s Doing Great. Really.



Photo: WireImage

On Friday, WWD rained on our happy-hour planning with the abrupt announcement that Thom Browne's CEO and CFO had left the label. CEO Tom Becker and CFO Thomas Cunningham decided to leave on their own, according to Browne's spokeswoman Miki Higasa. "[Thom Browne] had been thinking a lot about restructuring, and they decided it was time to leave to pursue other interests,” she said. Browne is running the company all by his lonesome and may bring on other executive types to help him. (Higasa says he's in the "thinking stage.")
Higasa again refuted rumors that Browne is thisclose to filing for bankruptcy. She seemingly bolstered her case by highlighting Browne's non–Thom Browne pursuits, like his Black Fleece collection for Brooks Brothers and his collaboration with Moncler. But Higasa confirmed that Browne is still looking for a financial partner. He's been looking for one for three years but refuses to sell a majority stake in his company. Aside from that, Higasa doesn't say much about the health of Browne's namesake label and store. And all WWD says about their success is that the store "remains open." Sadly, that is worth boasting about in These Times, but doesn't say much about the longevity of Browne's signature flood pants. What of the world's fiery passion for high-waters? We know it exists. The niche crowd of men lurking our streets in high-waters grows each spring, and we actually don't dislike the way they look with the proper pair of mandals, which must be worth something to someone with money. Right, rich people person out there? Maybe it's time for Browne to be less rigid and market his wares to the masses with a Topshop or H&M line, since he loves collaborations so much. Lord knows no one's buying his $2,000 suits now. Matthew Williamson got an incredible amount of press from it, after all

[29.97]

As a designer you can't rely on selling in N America. Too dispersed, too few shops, too small of a market. You can't produce here because it's expensive and hard to produce at the same quality as Japan or Europe. Shops in Europe and Japan then have to pay customs and shipping on goods. By the time you get around to marking the stock up to retail the price has ballooned to an astronomical level compared to European and Japanese designers. As a talented designer creating something that's not meant to be mass-consumed it's just not worth it to produce in N America and that has nothing to do with talent...

Amen to this. This is so true.......

[Faust]

Looks like he can go back to Tom Brown now.

"Japan’s Cross Company has raised its stake in Thom Browne to 67 percent"

[pierce]

I think America does somethings great, but where they fail is in considered design. They just don't have the legacy that say France, Italy or Germany has. Either in the creation or the appreciation. Nothing wrong with that. I have worked in both continents and the difference is night and day. The american workplace is all about the quarter, where as in Europe time is not so important. Where you have a nation that everyone is running afraid if they stop that they will fall and there is no net, things that take time are not considered. Fast food, cars, mobile phones, money...America is great at technology and fast evolution, but considered design that is built on a legacy of centuries, they can't do it, they just don't have that culture.

[Faust]

Undoubtedly there is something to this view - nevertheless, it's stereotypical and outdated. Italian tailors learned their craft in Saville Row after WWII, and the entire country is crumbling under the weight of its own history, including cultural history (not to mention that any person with a brain today could not give a shit about the so-called "Italian style," which is hopelessly outdated) and please tell me how many designers that show on the Paris catwalks and even design for French houses are actually French? And our French members freely admit that there is an overwhelming conservatism and "we-know-it-all' snobism prevalent in France when it comes to culture.