The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

[Faust]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

No, Seventh, I am simply determined to call garbage when I see it, and no philosophical footwork and thread derailing will take me off course. Rei, as a designer, has run out of steam a while ago - she is substituting circus tricks for design. This does not in anyway diminish what's she's done for fashion, it's just her time is over, I guess. It may sound harsh, but everything ends. I will not talk art, as I don't know it well enough, but I can certainly talk literature. I look at one of my most favorite (if not the favorite) writers, Milan Kundera; I just read his last book (non-fiction), and it's pretty facile, and the last few novels are not great by any means, but that does not diminish the worth of Immortality or The Unbearable Lightness of Being. But, I will also not be blind and say his every word is gold, just because he is a great novelist.

[laika]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



[quote user="Faust"]

This collaboration comes exactly from these notions - that if she touches something, it turns into a pot of gold.

[/quote]

You can repeat this until you're blue in the face but that alone will not make it convincing. Like casem said, no one has said anything like this, and certainly not Johnny.This is an entirely subjective assertion that you're making, and as far as I can see, an invented one. All of your posts in this thread have been assertions--postmodernism is bad, Rei is postmodern, the collaboration is post-modern, and the collaboration is bad. All of them are effectively meaningless because you can't (or refuse) to back them up with any sort of critical reasoning.

Contrary to what Clement Greenberg thought, forceful assertion is not argument. It's being a bully, which is exactly what Clem was. You are asking us to accept that Rei is a pathetic pomo poseur--don't youthink you need to support that claim a bit, rather than just repetitively stating it?

And to say that in all of the thoughtful, considered, and lengthy posts in this thread--Fuuma's, avantster's, casem's, and Seventh's, to name to just a few--you find nothing of "substance" to counter your "position" isjust insulting. No one has been anything but respectful of your posts, while you have persisted in mocking, dismissing, or ignoring posts that don't concur with your opinion. Sorry, but it's just not fair.

As far as the bad taste thing goes...it's a good question. I find myself in a bit of a paradox. One the one hand I do think taste is subjective; on the other, I am compelled to admit that yes, "bad taste," somehow, exists. Greenberg--and his taste-based mode of critique--is somewhat interesting in this regard, although I, like many others, find his views and methods to be narrow and outdated. At any rate, I suspect our ideas of what constitutes bad taste are different, but I am certainly very open to hearing yours, and about how they relate to your dislike for what Rei is doing.

[Faust]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



Oh, yea, you certainly have been the paragon of cool in this thread,
laika - "repeat till you are blue in the face," "don't tell me what to
drop," "give me a break," "harping on." [86] I backed up my points just fine - she has not produced a strong collection in years, instead doing a myriad of collaborations, undies, a perfume a month, etc. What else do you want me to say? You can repeat that she is still great until you are blue in the face - I see what I see. And if you still believe that this collaboration with H&M will produce something worthwhile, let's just agree to disagree and move on.

And Johnny certainly said that - how else do you interpret his post that I just quoted?!

[Seventh]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



[quote user="Faust"]No, Seventh, I am simply determined to call garbage when I see it, and no philosophical footwork and thread derailing will take me off course. Rei, as a designer, has run out of steam a while ago - she is substituting circus tricks for design. This does not in anyway diminish what's she's done for fashion, it's just her time is over, I guess. It may sound harsh, but everything ends. I will not talk art, as I don't know it well enough, but I can certainly talk literature. I look at one of my most favorite (if not the favorite) writers, Milan Kundera; I just read his last book (non-fiction), and it's pretty facile, and the last few novels are not great by any means, but that does not diminish the worth of Immortality or The Unbearable Lightness of Being. But, I will also not be blind and say his every word is gold, just because he is a great novelist.
[/quote]

Faust, I haven't brought any philosophical footwork to the table, I simple tried to address ideas brought up and my thoughts to about them. I am interested in this discussion, and I am interested in different points of view, however I truly don't understand your dislike for her (I understand that you think she has "had her time" but why does a few less interesting years of collection mean that she should be shipped off to the graveyard? Would you say that about other designers?) As far as thread derailing, the thread is called "the CDG UNIVERSE", first of all that is a huge topic, second and how on earth is has the thread been derailed, all anyone is talking about is whether CDG and H&M will work (which is exactly what the universe part refers to).

As far as my point about art, Picasso's Les Demoiselles d'Avignon, is a very famous painting (I believe in the permanent collection in MoMA). It was revolutionary in its time for what it portrayed, its content, and the manner with which the paint was handled. However, it is hardly a pretty or aesthetically pleasing picture. Its power and longevity comes not from following current aesthetic tastes, but shifting the potential of what a painting could be or do. In writing, much like James Joyce.

Laika it is very good to hear from you [51], and your point about Greenberg is right on, he was a narrow-minded bully. And many of the best AbEx painter associated with him (De Kooning and Guston (while he was making abstract paintings)) wanted nothing to do with his ideas. He tried to fit the world to his logic rather than stay open to new possibilities. That is that is what I fear this thread is becoming.

[Faust]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



I wasn't talking about you, Seventh :-) Nice try about "CDG universe" - we obviously weren't talking about that for the last 4 pages.

Let's get back to basics, again. Gerry asked me what I think about H&M + CDG collab, and I told her my reasons for it - please reread them and tell me whether you agree or disagree and why. Johnny disagreed, and never provided a reason why. Laika didn't even address it, instead supporting Johnny's ridiculous claim that this collaboration is the same as outsourcing production of one's main line. This snowballing of a discussion has become meaningless, because it does not address my initial reaction. And all of you who disagree, tell me when you will be standing in line in front of your local H&M.

[laika]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

[quote user="Seventh"]


I wouldn't be surprised if Rei would enjoy this, I think her work has always been about forcing the discussion and analysis of fashion on topics that we perhaps thought were self-evident.

Liking or not liking the collection is almost irrelevant, it seems to be about opening possibilities of what a garment can do or address. I love her work because it makes me think, even when I am not enamored by the objects that she is making, because she is pushing me to define what I think clothing is, and tearing up some of my assumptions in the process.

[/quote]

This is what I love about her too. I think her collections have been many things over the past few years--sometimes purely playful, sometimes iconoclastic, sometimes explorations of the limits of form and what a garment can express. Sometimes a collection is about "Anti-conservatism," or "bad taste," in her words; at others, it's about simply "cutting without a pattern,"and what it means to do this, historically and formally.If you are actually looking for new ideas and for opportunities to think, rather than trying to force her intoanarrowly defined culturalmovement, I think she still offers a great deal. Some of thetfs threads on recent CDG collections have been fantastic examples of the way she continues to provoke thought.

It's true, as Johnny mentioned in another thread, that she is no longer a major influence on the way modern women dress, but that her thinking and methods continue to inspire other designers and that she is therefore still an important force, even if indirectly. I think this is another reasonwhy the idea of the collaboration is interesting--many of her ideas have already surfaced in mainstream fashion and even in the way that fashion-conscious people dress. So the venture is fitting, commercially, creatively, and culturally.

[quote user="Seventh"]

This whole Postmodernism and Modernism debate is frustrating me a bit. The terms are big, unwieldy ideas, and people are making a lot of assumptions about what Post modernism means that I don't think are totally accurate (or at least are up for debate). Wouldn't it be better to narrow the focus of the discussion and speak directly about CDG and what they are trying to accomplish than trying to fit Rei into a generalized movement?

[/quote]

I completely agree with this.That's partially why I have tried, here and earlier, to point out the differences between her collections.It's reductiveand inaccurate tostick her in a post-modern box. Doubley so, when that box itself is a reductive view of postmodernism. I think casem was correct to point out that the discussion has fallen into a pattern of high modernism vs. pomo, but I think those parameters are inappropriate, not to mention severely limiting. This is exactly what I was trying to address in the first few comments I posted here. Unfortunately,efforts to think outside the box have been strongly discouraged.

thanks for all the great posts, it is a pleasure to hear from you again! [51]

[BECOMING-INTENSE]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



CdG Underwear

CdG Play

CdG Speedo

CdG Fred Perry

Les Demoiselles d'Avignon Pablo Picasso

Just so to show some of the things that are being refered to and
maybe it can help to get a bit of perspective on matters here [79] ...

talking about matter, one thing is ideas, thoughts, etc. another thing is how these are expressed, preserved or manifested in matter. Maybe it's because I find a certain salvation in materialism, that i find the latter much more interesting. [51]

[laika]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



[74]

Nicely illustrated. In all fairness though, I think Seventh was referring to her collections, not her collaborations. You would not judge her strictly on the basis of her most commercial ventures, would you? That doesn't seem like something you would do, anyway....[51]

I am a fan of the fragrances and the wallets....the speedos and printed tees, not so much. [79]

[BECOMING-INTENSE]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



I know, or atleast I hope so, but I couldn't help myself! [79]
It's quite perverted seeing Picasso up there ...

[74]

On a more serious note, I think I have only discussed her more commercial ventures,
like the one she is embarking on now with H&M. I thought that was what we're discussing here [^o)] ... [83]

[laika]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

[quote user="BECOMING-INTENSE"]


Just so to show some of the things that are being refered to and
maybe it can help to get a bit of perspective on matters here [79] ...

talking about matter, one thing is ideas, thoughts, etc. another thing is how these are expressed, preserved or manifested in matter. Maybe it's because I find a certain salvation in materialism, that i find the latter much more interesting. [51]

[/quote]

Here is some more materialityfor you....and perhaps a bit of balance for the thread. All from collections of the last 5 years....[75]

[dontbecruel]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

Laika, I don't particularly want to give assistance to Faust's paranoiac stand for a very selective version of high culture, but I have to say that everything in the pictures you posted has been done much better by Rei, Yohji or Westwood, mostly more than ten years ago. Designers like Ann D (who I'm not a particular fan of) are at an advantage because they propose an argument about the development of their own personal vision, so it doesn't have to look new every time. Rei doesn't really have this alibi.

[laika]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

[quote user="BECOMING-INTENSE"]


I know, or atleast I hope so, but I couldn't help myself! [79]
It's quite perverted seeing Picasso up there ...

[74]

On a more serious note, I think I have only discussed her more commercial ventures,
like the one she is embarking on now with H&M. I thought that was what we're discussing here [^o)] ... [83]

[/quote]

Well, I think there have been a number of issues under discussion. Personally, I have mostly been trying to defend her integrity as a designer, whichwas harshly--and I feel, unreasonably--attacked in the first post. It's important to have a sound basis for extreme assertions, I think. That's what I have beenasking for.

As I said before, I share many of the reservations expressed here (including yours)about the collaboration, but I ultimately prefer to "keep the channels open"....i am always open to a surprise! [51]

[BECOMING-INTENSE]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

[quote user="laika"][quote user="BECOMING-INTENSE"]


I know, or atleast I hope so, but I couldn't help myself! [79]
It's quite perverted seeing Picasso up there ...

[74]

On a more serious note, I think I have only discussed her more commercial ventures,
like the one she is embarking on now with H&M. I thought that was what we're discussing here [^o)] ... [83]

[/quote]

Well, I think there have been a number of issues under discussion. Personally, I have mostly been trying to defend her integrity as a designer, whichwas harshly--and I feel, unreasonably--attacked in the first post. It's important to have a sound basis for extreme assertions, I think. That's what I have beenasking for.

As I said before, I share many of the reservations expressed here (including yours)about the collaboration, but I ultimately prefer to "keep the channels open"....i am always open to a surprise! [51]

[/quote]

Maybe a reason why confusement can erupt ...

A critical voice doesn't have to close down the channels, they are wide open here for any erupting intensities or sensations,
from what ever direction they might occur. [64]

Thank you for balancing "the depression" out! [51]

[laika]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



[quote user="dontbecruel"]Laika, I don't particularly want to give assistance to Faust's paranoiac stand for a very selective version of high culture, but I have to say that everything in the pictures you posted has been done much better by Rei, Yohji or Westwood, mostly more than ten years ago. Designers like Ann D (who I'm not a particular fan of, by the way) are at an advantage because they propose an argument about the development of their own personal vision, so it doesn't have to look new every time. Rei doesn't really have this alibi.
[/quote]

dbc, I'm not claiming that Rei is as good as she was ten years ago, by any means. I don't think Yohji is as good as he was 10 years either, and certainly not Viv.(Still love them all, in one form or another, though.) All I'm saying is that she's not rubbish, not acharlatan and (talking of odd comparisons), nothing like Madonna. Even her weaker work attests to this. Faust makes it sound like the only choices are ""Rei is gold" and "Rei is crap," but I don't see it that way. I'm in the grey zone on this one.

It's interestingwhat you say about Ann being at an advantage. I would add that she has never tried to propose and effect a revolutionin dress,the way that the Japanese did in the 80's and, to a lesser extent, Margiela in the 90's. She has always been a far quieter, more personalpresence and that has thus far served her well. I think she is great and I wear plenty of her clothes. I guess I am a bit of a brechtian at heart though, so Rei's method--of destroying in order to create--has always held alot ofappeal for me. I do realize the spirit behind the clothes is not the same as it was in the early days, and I regret that. But Rei cannot be entirely faulted for this....the climate of the world has changed enormously.

[laika]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



[quote user="BECOMING-INTENSE"]

Maybe a reason why confusement can erupt ...

A critical voice doesn't have to close down the channels, they are wide open here for any erupting intensities or sensations,
from what ever direction they might occur. [64]

Thank you for balancing "the depression" out! [51]

[/quote]

That's exactly what I've been wanting to say, but you said it more beautifully, as you often do. [64]

Thank you for balancing out my depression over the way this has all unfolded! [51]