The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

[Johnny]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

I am quite interested to see what this will look like. My first reaction was "oh dear" but then I realised that primarily the reason that I wasn't interested in any other collab with H&M is that I have no interest in or respect for Victor & Rolf or Cavalli or Stella etc. Truth is no one knows what this will look like. I'm sure it will have nothing to do with, or be anything like,Madonna, not just for the false reasons that Faust suggests. I don't think there's anything to hate here at all (and hate does not seem too strong a word this time (nor in retrospect does it seem so in relation to the last time I used it)). I think that Kawakubo has integrity if nothing else. And it's really not so bad to be light-hearted once in a while, by means other than the use of the word "baller".

[Faust]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

How are my reasons false, Johnny? Do you still honestly believe that Rei is a free-wheeling creator unconcerned with the fashion world, her image, and her business? How do you then explain Joffe speaking, along with such luminaries as Prada and Louis Vuitton, at a global luxury conference in Las Vegas last year, organized by the Economist, on the subject of how collaborations are a great business tactic?

[Johnny]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

I don't think that Faust, but that's not what you said. You were talking about mediocrity as the norm, camp, so bad it's good ec etc. Nothing about the company's economic approach. I think cdg are interested in being a successful company, a profitable company,she says it herself int eh article. It won't be like Madonna because cdg is nothing like Madonnain any way shape or form.

[Faust]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



There is absolutely nothing redeeming about any collaboration of that sort, Johnny. H&M has neither the means nor the desire to make anything but the blandest designs of lowest quality. Such is the nature of mass production. The only reason for these collaborations is marketing. The only other reason I see for Rei is to make another splash, and it's the splash exactly along the lines "it's so bad it's good" - just like her rolling stones and pink panther collections, her flag collection, her last mens collection based on the great depression, and any other gestures she makes that mask her demise as an important designer. This is my opinion based on recent observations - I am not asking you to subscribe to it.

[Johnny]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

Of course you're not asking me to subscribe to it, but we're having a discussion. Why is there any less merit in this than moving your production to cheap factories, reducing quality and maintaining high prices?

[Faust]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

If we are having a discussion let's stick with Rei. You still didn't tell me how my reasons are false.

[laika]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



Faust, I thinkJohnny meant, the insincere reasons that you mentioned? Not that you are being false?edit: oops, i guess not....

Please explain, how the flag collection is "wallowing in bad taste, camp, self-deprecating humor, irony-with-a-smirk, rebellion-as-embracing-consumer culture, it's-so-bad-its-good, mediocrity-as-the-norm." Because your definitions--or irony, kitsch and camp--and the way you smush them all together as though they all mean exactly the same thing, continue to elude me. I can see where some of the menswear, with its direct references to pop culture, can be interpreted as ironic. But with the exception of this latest Amy Winehouse collection (which I personally thought was more about trashiness than kitsch), I really don't see any of this self-conscious referentiality--or mediocrity--in her womenswear.

I almost feel like you wanted to post this rant in the Bernhard Willhelm thread? [72]

[Johnny]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



[quote user="Faust"]If we are having a discussion let's stick with Rei. You still didn't tell me how my reasons are false.
[/quote]

I don't understand - I meant false in the sense that I thought you were wrong - that the reasons you gave lacked validity.

OK, rigid rule on "discussions" noted,and I promise not to mention Dries again.....

[Faust]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

[quote user="Johnny"]

[quote user="Faust"]If we are having a discussion let's stick with Rei. You still didn't tell me how my reasons are false.
[/quote]

I don't understand - I meant false in the sense that I thought you were wrong - that the reasons you gave lacked validity. Is there something wrong with disagreeing withyou?

[/quote]

Well, if you think my reasons are false, than I would like you to explain why.

[Faust]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

[quote user="laika"]

Faust, I thinkJohnny meant, the insincere reasons that you mentioned? Not that you are being false?edit: oops, i guess not....

Please explain, how the flag collection is "wallowing in bad taste, camp, self-deprecating humor, irony-with-a-smirk, rebellion-as-embracing-consumer culture, it's-so-bad-its-good, mediocrity-as-the-norm." Because your definitions--or irony, kitsch and camp--and the way you smush them all together as though they all mean exactly the same thing, continue to elude me. I can see where some of the menswear, with its direct references to pop culture, can be interpreted as ironic. But with the exception of this latest Amy Winehouse collection (which I personally thought was more about trashiness than kitsch), I really don't see any of this self-conscious referentiality--or mediocrity--in her womenswear.

I almost feel like you wanted to post this rant in the Bernhard Willhelm thread? [72]

[/quote]

I don't lump them together. I don't think I mentioned kitsch here. Didn't we discuss the flag collection, Rei's pronouncement that "flag is the purest thing in the world" or something like that, that caused a shit-storm (at least on tFS) ? And didn't you agree with what dontbecruel said later - that she now has to hide behind gestures and overwrought complexity where before she used to shine with her designs? Or am I missing something? As far as camp in her womens - I don't need to look far beyond her mickey mouse collection last fall. I am not even talking about her lapses into bad taste, such as the holocaust references in her collections that were discussed here recently.

[Johnny]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

[quote user="Faust"][quote user="Johnny"]


[quote user="Faust"]If we are having a discussion let's stick with Rei. You still didn't tell me how my reasons are false.
[/quote]

I don't understand - I meant false in the sense that I thought you were wrong - that the reasons you gave lacked validity. Is there something wrong with disagreeing withyou?

[/quote]

Well, if you think my reasons are false, than I would like you to explain why.

[/quote]

The one that stuck out for me was the mediocrity as the norm thing. I don't see how cdg is mediocre. If you are referring to speedo, the underwear, play etc, then fine, but you expressly weren't.I don't think the flag collection ismediocre, i don't think the pink panther collection was mediocre (the fabrics were amazing), i don't think here current collection is mediocre (someof it is amazing to look at and touch). you might not like it but it's not mediocre.

and the thing about madonna too. are you really suggesting that she is just like madonnareally?simply because she's doing a collection for H&M? and that any distinction based on contribution to fashion, integrity, ability is invalid and only really nudge nudge wink wink ironic?

[Fuuma]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



[quote user="Faust"]Ok, here is what I thought about when I said that this is pathetic. I am sick and tired of our culture being gripped by postmodern notions of wallowing in bad taste, of camp (with very few exceptions), of self-deprecating humor, of that irony-with-a-smirk, of rebellion-as-embracing-consumer culture, of that it's-so-bad-its-good, of mediocrity-as-the-norm, and Rei has been embodying all that in the past years. This collaboration only epitomizes that. "Look at me, I am doing the same as Madonna, but I am smart and artistic, so you KNOW I am doing it with the sense or irony, wink-wink." Don't make me puke, Rei. Oh, too late... Rei is the new Vivienne Westwood. You heard it here first.
[/quote]

But she's also doing the same as V&R (Uniqlo) and other labels that, like them or not, are not to be equated with Madonna, why take her as an example? Uniqlo is the nexus where Gap meets H&M yet I see you supporting their slim fit jeans, while I wear their plain white tees. I'm also not sure why you would conflate bad taste with camp, self-deprecating humour and irony, as those are distinct but interrelated notions, are you saying this collaboration meets the criteria to be qualified as any and all of these? Might you be so passionately opposed to this very type of design/mass marketing marriage that your words went beyond your thoughts?

The way I see it CdG is, at least partially, rooted in meaningful collaborations where they disorient us by re-inventing what we saw as crystallized. Truth be told, this H&M thing isn?t one of them; on the other hand it is under the H&M name and more of a guest-design, one shot deal, aimed at exchanging some of the CdG mystique in return of worldwide exposure. Why not see it as a publicity coup that may result in interesting clothes. Modernist interior designers tackling the challenge of low cost furniture have given us some of the most fascinating 60s and 70s design, I?d like to see more fashion designers doing the same thing. I am, of course, worried that by lowering price all we?re doing is furthering a feeling of disposability but this is IMHO, one of the greatest challenges we?re facing now anyway; we?re not turning objects into fetishes but their consumption, a fleeting and ultimately unsatisfying feeling if there ever was one.

[BECOMING-INTENSE]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



^Question Fuuma, are you really drawing comparison with Modernist interior
designers from the 60s and 70s and the challenges that they were facing, and these H&M collaborations?

Anyways, I might be wrong when we actually get to see this, but for what H&M produces and stands for, this doesn't elude any exciting or interesting prospects ...

[gerry]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

[quote user="BECOMING-INTENSE"]

^Question Fuuma, are you really drawing comparison with Modernist interiordesigners from the 60s and 70s and the challenges that they were facing, and these H&M collaborations?

Anyways, I might be wrong when we actually get to see this, but for what H&M produces and stands for, this doesn't elude any exciting or interesting prospects ...

[/quote]

I feel the same way, but I've been thinking and... Does what we expect H&M to produce with Kawabuko create any prospects for fashion or does it mean that the stuff that comes out of there will be stuff that we don't feel is good enough to buy?

While I do feel like this is kind of like a black speck on CDG for the simple reason that there's no way the quality and fabric could be up to par, I think this might actually be a good thing for the world of fashion. A good number of the kids at my college intend to become fashion designers. They claim to love and live for fashion. They also don't know that designers like Issey Miyake (Issey Miyake!!) and Rei Kawabuko exist. Hell, some don't even realize that Yves Saint Laurent isn't designing for Yves Saint Laurent, despite the fact that they have the Muse bag, or whatever. I don't think CDG is intended for mass consumption, and by putting it in that arena, there is the distinct possibility that perhaps these people who claim to be interested in fashion will be able to see fashion beyond a Louis Vuitton Speedy... and there's no way that could be a bad thing.

[laika]

Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

[quote user="Faust"]


I don't lump them together. I don't think I mentioned kitsch here. Didn't we discuss the flag collection, Rei's pronouncement that "flag is the purest thing in the world" or something like that, that caused a shit-storm (at least on tFS) ? And didn't you agree with what dontbecruel said later - that she now has to hide behind gestures and overwrought complexity where before she used to shine with her designs? Or am I missing something? As far as camp in her womens - I don't need to look far beyond her mickey mouse collection last fall. I am not even talking about her lapses into bad taste, such as the holocaust references in her collections that were discussed here recently.

[/quote]

I had to go back to the thread to look at it, because, even though I often agree with dbc, I can't imagine i would ever go so far as that! Ido see how you made the inference, but that's really not what I said or meant. I don't believe that Rei has been simply "trading on her reputation," since the 80's, althoughher collections from that decade and from the 90s are my favorites, partially for the reasons that dbc mentioned. I might say the same thing about Yohji, frankly, but that doesn't mean I think he's lost his integrity as a designer. To the contrary!

And you dotend to lump all those conceptstogether...the confusion started in that very same thread, where you were calling the rag doll collection, "camp" and "ironic." I realize it may seem rather academic to be so touchy about all these definitions, but, when you are using these words to denounce somebody's integrity, I think it's important to be precise about what they mean. I'm not trying to assert that you don't know the difference--only that your understanding and use of these words is very unclear to me. Especially when you apply them as blanket terms to describe everything from the Rolling Stones to the Japanese Flag to striped pajamas--all very different collections, as far as I'm concerned.