It's All a Blur to Them (Dressing across genders)

[LittleTombo]

Zamb
I said:
-"Christianity is at it's core a pagan,sunworshipping religion just as so many other religions throughout history(just look at the history of the cross, one of the most ancient symbols in the history of the world)"
-You don't have to believe me.Just do a little research for yourself. I think it'd do you good.

Jesus has nothing to do with the concept of love to me.because it's way more ancient and universal. People have known of the concept of love since the beginning of time. Jesus may have everything to do with the concept of love for you because you can only comprehend it through the not so ancient biblical scriptures.

[theetruscan]

I think arguing about the origins of Christianity is kind of beside the point, and the amount of research and literature on the topic is daunting to say the least. I mean, at its base, yes, it co-opted the basic festival times from prior religions and constructed events correlating to the Christian mythology to occur at those times, but that's not unique to Christianity. Every major religion appears to have recognized early on that without festivals at the major event times such as spring, midwinter, harvest, and the like, they wouldn't get traction. Beyond that though, it seems like picking at someone's core belief system for no real purpose. But, putting your interpretation on someone else's religion is not going to get you anywhere.

I think the crux of this argument (for me) is really that you can believe whatever you want religiously, but especially in a country built on both a separation of church and state and the notion of equality* using your religions beliefs to deny rights to others is unacceptable.

* Clearly we don't have the details right still, and had them very wrong to start with. But the idea was there.

[zamb]

Zamb
I said:
-"Christianity is at it's core a pagan,sunworshipping religion just as so many other religions throughout history(just look at the history of the cross, one of the most ancient symbols in the history of the world)"
-You don't have to believe me.Just do a little research for yourself. I think it'd do you good.

Jesus has nothing to do with the concept of love to me.because it's way more ancient and universal. People have known of the concept of love since the beginning of time. Jesus may have everything to do with the concept of love for you because you can only comprehend it through the not so ancient biblical scriptures.

well there is no point for me to have a discussion with you because you are saying what Christianity is "to you" and not what it is in its pure principles, by that approach anyone can say what anything "means" to them, and not what a thing actually is.

I don't have to do any research, I know very well the history of Christianity. you ought to know that there is a significant difference between what Biblical Christianity is, and what has come down to us as Christianity throughout the ages. if it were ever possible that the original apostles of Christianity to see many of the things practiced as Christianity today they would be shocked!
Christianity at its core and in its original form is not a Sun worshiping religion, (I know what you mean by that, but you can do the work of explaining yourself) but give me the evidence you have and I will give you biblical (and some historical) evidence to refute your claims..............

Jesus is the revelation of God in human form, (God manifested in the flesh,) we know from Scripture that Jesus existed before his incarnation, and before time existed, so I don't know how you can say "more ancient and universal, when according to scripture he brought the "universe" into existence.
its fine if you want to reject the scriptures and what they teach, but one cannot them to support arguments and discard them when they see fit, which is what you seem to be doing here............

[zamb]

I think arguing about the origins of Christianity is kind of beside the point, and the amount of research and literature on the topic is daunting to say the least. I mean, at its base, yes, it co-opted the basic festival times from prior religions and constructed events correlating to the Christian mythology to occur at those times, but that's not unique to Christianity. Every major religion appears to have recognized early on that without festivals at the major event times such as spring, midwinter, harvest, and the like, they wouldn't get traction. Beyond that though, it seems like picking at someone's core belief system for no real purpose. But, putting your interpretation on someone else's religion is not going to get you anywhere.

I think the crux of this argument (for me) is really that you can believe whatever you want religiously, but especially in a country built on both a separation of church and state and the notion of equality* using your religions beliefs to deny rights to others is unacceptable.

* Clearly we don't have the details right still, and had them very wrong to start with. But the idea was there.

the only legitimate festival that Christianity should have, as spoken of by the scriptures is the memorial of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, as celebrated in the Lords Supper, this correlates to the Jewish passover, which comes on the fourteenth day of the first month of the Jewish Calendar, at Sundown. Christmas, Easter and all the others have nothing to do with pure Christianity, they were adopted long afterward.................matter of fact the scriptures speak against a lot of them in many ways, which is why I said that if the original apostles would see what is practiced today they would be shocked.
what is legitimate is what Christ and the apostles taught and practiced, and the bible sanctions, anithing else is an addition that need not exist and can be seen as invalid.

I understand your point about Church and state though, but whether Christians or not, human individuals have core principles that guides their decision making process and as such, it isn't always possible for one to go against ones religious beliefs, especially if in the life of the individual that is the premier guiding philosophy...............

[LittleTombo]

Thee truscan
Well I'm not arguing about the origins of christianity. I said "for me", the reasons why I can't be a part of that community.
I was born into the christian community myself.I've been a christian for 13 yrs of my life.I'm not atacking anyone elses religious believes.
Don't try to make it look like I'm dumming down this discussion.

I have the right to explain why I can't support most of the christian institutions disaproval of gay marriage based upon my personal view
- like zamb has a right to explain why he can't support christian gay marriage based upon his personal views.

Zamb: If you already "know" that you can trumf whatever information I will present to you as being false with quotes from the bible, there really is no idea in having this discussion with you in the first place.

[zamb]

Zamb: If you already "know" that you can trumf whatever information I will present to you as being false with quotes from the bible, there really is no idea in having this discussion with you in the first place.

well now you are backing away, I may disagree with your points and supporting arguments, but you can at least state them if you are going to make such bold (seemingly objective) claims as to say that Christianity is pagan. You must have had some knowledge that led you to this conclusion. I would at least like to know the source and support of your argument.............

[LittleTombo]

You have to have an open mind in order to recieve important information, simple as that. I'm not backing away. I just don't see the reason for me to explain my knowledge to you when you have already build a wall around yourself. Your asumption that you can prove me wrong before I've even presented the slightest piece of evidence to you.It's all getting a bit too narcisistic for me to be a part of.

I'd much rather discuss with you what I previously stated - being a bit closer to the original intention of this thread I believe:
Male and Female energy is represented in each and every human being.It's called the right and the left brain(or Ying and Yang whatever you wanna call it). Our procreative tools has nothing to do with what we as human beings are at the core= one and the same.

People in the military wear uniforms,people in the police wear uniforms.
I would never wear a uniform based upon my sex. What's the point?
I can recognize a human being when I see one.

[casem]

I've always wondered the same Fumma. The only thing I can figure is that gays unapologetically live in sin. Whereas an adulterer, stealer, or liar may renounce their act after the fact and acknowledge that it is wrong, gays, at least if they don't want to live a life of shame and guilt coupled with high suicide rates, live their life committing the sinful act over and over (sometimes twice a day!) without moral reservation. I dunno, maybe the religious zealots are jealous that people can live their lives unburdened with the guilt and shame of religion.

I'm no Freud, but I think religious sexual oppression has led to a lot of evil in the world. The psychological toll of masochistic self repression of instinctual desire and shame when that desire is fulfilled leads to some pretty fucked up people, from Islamists who suicide bomb for the promise of virgins, to religious leaders who cheat, and catholic priests who molest children because they have no other sexual outlet to a golf champion banging, like, 30 people.

But who knows, maybe they'll find some other draconian belief to desperately grasp onto once homosexuality is acceptable.

Zamb, I appreciate your post to me, and the civility with which you conduct the argument. I agree that we could be friends in real life despite our differing believes and I respect you as another creative individual and an independent designer. Heck, my old boyfriend's parents where the most hard core bible-literalist-fundamentalists I had ever met and they loved me! Though if they knew what I was doing to their son, they probably would have chased me out the door with a shot gun.

I guess what I'm saying is that there are multiple and contradicting things you can get out of the Bible and I have a hard time seeing as to why the focus on homosexuals is so strong in the Christian community, if I rely solely to sacred texts to find meaning.

[genevieveryoko]

I dunno, maybe the religious zealots are jealous that people can live their lives unburdened with the guilt and shame of religion.

I'm no Freud, but I think religious sexual oppression has led to a lot of evil in the world. The psychological toll of masochistic self repression of instinctual desire and shame when that desire is fulfilled leads to some pretty fucked up people, from Islamists who suicide bomb for the promise of virgins, to religious leaders who cheat, and catholic priests who molest children because they have no other sexual outlet to a golf champion banging, like, 30 people.

Well said...but you definitely don't have to be Freud to realize that! And you don't have to be a religious zealot either to be jealous of those who live their lives "unburdened with the guilt and shame of religion"...so-called liberal progressives get the same jealousy...certainly we are all capable of feeling this "human emotion" not to mention guilt. Shame, I don't know. And then there are sex addicts, who have plenty of sexual outlets but are always looking for the next opportunity to "experience" life.

And I'm sorry Little Tombo but I think you're oversimplifying the whole yin and yang thing...Chinese medicine is very complex, and does recognize that different genders have different hormones and glands. Why don't you go and read some queer theory, there are a lot of good books out there...it seems like you are really interested in this subject, but are having trouble articulating your point(s).

[zamb]

You have to have an open mind in order to recieve important information, simple as that. I'm not backing away. I just don't see the reason for me to explain my knowledge to you when you have already build a wall around yourself. Your asumption that you can prove me wrong before I've even presented the slightest piece of evidence to you.It's all getting a bit too narcisistic for me to be a part of.

I'd much rather discuss with you what I previously stated - being a bit closer to the original intention of this thread I believe:
Male and Female energy is represented in each and every human being.It's called the right and the left brain(or Ying and Yang whatever you wanna call it). Our procreative tools has nothing to do with what we as human beings are at the core= one and the same.

People in the military wear uniforms,people in the police wear uniforms.
I would never wear a uniform based upon my sex. What's the point?
I can recognize a human being when I see one.

Well then,
we can agree to leave it alone, since you want to use some covering veil to move away form a discussion about something you boldly made claims about put can present no supporting evidence for such claims. calling me closed minded is irrelevant, I am simply asking you to back up the claims you are making, but instead of doing that, you would rather refuse by accusing me of being "incapable" of receiving "important" information.

you seem to want to discuss something in which you think you may be more knowledgeable, fine then, I don't have a lot of time but let me knowingly swallow you bait and engage you..............
except I don't understand the logic or reasoning behind your argument (which seams a bit rehearsed) Maybe if you would rephrase it some, I can attempt to answer you.

[casem]

Yes, and to be fair, certainly religion isn't the only purveyor of guilt and repression, some things are a factor of culture, society, nationalism etc.

Well said...but you definitely don't have to be Freud to realize that! And you don't have to be a religious zealot either to be jealous of those who live their lives "unburdened with the guilt and shame of religion"...so-called liberal progressives get the same jealousy...certainly we are all capable of feeling this "human emotion" not to mention guilt. Shame, I don't know. And then there are sex addicts, who have plenty of sexual outlets but are always looking for the next opportunity to "experience" life.

[galia]

Maybe irrelevant, but I believe peer pressure to be a much stronger creator of guilt than religion in itself. Of course religion is very often used as a tool for peer pressure so it's easy to take the one for the other. I could go on to try in my weak way to explain why this is at the core of the fundmental difference between christianity and paganism, but I feel this would be straying too far from the original convo

[Faust]

This thread is all a blur to me...

[zamb]

Maybe irrelevant, but I believe peer pressure to be a much stronger creator of guilt than religion in itself. Of course religion is very often used as a tool for peer pressure so it's easy to take the one for the other. I could go on to try in my weak way to explain why this is at the core of the fundmental difference between christianity and paganism, but I feel this would be straying too far from the original convo

Galia,
I would really love to hear your perspective on it, I think its fine to discuss religion (duck!) so long as we can keep it civil, its already on to that anyways.............. at least as it pertains to he original subject matter

[zamb]

This thread is all a blur to me...

you need a drink!