It's All a Blur to Them (Dressing across genders)

[Faust]

which posts? merz, you are becoming a bit paranoid about SZ moderation :-)

[move_ment]

This thread is amazing. Fuuma, I really admire the construction and expression of your ideas. Look forward to getting my hand on a few of the books noted in here.

edit: I think best to ignore zamb's opinion.

[almroth]

edit: I think best to ignore zamb's opinion.

amen!

[DRRRK]

I guess what I mean is that it's triggered by the same mechanisms. People should be aware of that.

And that's correct.

[zamb]

This thread is amazing. Fuuma, I really admire the construction and expression of your ideas. Look forward to getting my hand on a few of the books noted in here.

edit: I think best to ignore zamb's opinion.

amen!

Well, thats fine.......... as I asked no one to agree with me, or even to comment on my position, I hold a position that i've thought about long and hard and is based upon a theophilosophical worldview that I hold to be true

I am glad that even though Heirloom, Theetruscan and Fuuma (among others) disagree with me (and each other) to varying degrees, we have managed to have a rational, civil and articulate discussion about the subject at hand. If you all are going to throw your hats into the ring, it would be quite nice to hear your perspectives also...................

[zamb]

heirloom, your posts make me happy, especially bits like the existence vs. shape of sexuality. nicely put.

sorry faust, while some part of me longs for the really real of nature, there is a deep discomfort in me--a kind of nausea almost--that knows nothing is natural. Yes, sexuality is socially constructed. What's really interesting though, is the way most of us go about living our lives as though this were not true...as though we were living facts instead of fiction. It's a public secret, an act of forceful forgetting that makes the world go on somehow...

sorry if i sound totally spacey, i've been reading a lot this week and a lot of nietzsche.

Laika,
I am really interested in hearing you build on this idea a bit more, I am curious because I would like to know how does biology, the human anatomy and the continuity if life through the coming together of opposites in the same species factor into this social construct of which you speak...............
or maybe we can talk about it over some of the liquor I shared with the bicylcle man yesterday........

[theetruscan]

Similarly, it's fun to discuss how the natural occurrence of the coming together of, err, non-opposites in non-human animals and the (I would say natural, you would say unnatural) occurrence of the coming together of, err again, non-opposites in human animals has shaped those same social constructs throughout history. (combined with biology and anatomy of course)

For once, wikipedia is well cited on homosexuality in non-human animals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

Perhaps I should await your last response before picking at something new though.

[AKA*NYC]

is one giraffe actually slipping it to the other on that wikipedia page or are they just grazing astraddle?

[kompressorkev]

interesting discussion; not sure how i missed this thread...will post my thoughts (hopefully) later today. not to say that my opinion is completely important, just wanted to reserve some space before the discussion went on to different topics.

[Johnny]

re wiki article: transgender behaviour in animals? eh?

seriously though, very interesting discussion all

[zamb]

Similarly, it's fun to discuss how the natural occurrence of the coming together of, err, non-opposites in non-human animals and the (I would say natural, you would say unnatural) occurrence of the coming together of, err again, non-opposites in human animals has shaped those same social constructs throughout history. (combined with biology and anatomy of course)

For once, wikipedia is well cited on homosexuality in non-human animals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

Perhaps I should await your last response before picking at something new though.

I will respond to this and flesh uot my ideas a bit more for you to understand, Ive just been a little busy and Checking in intermittently.

However to just give you a snapshot, I don't necessarily look at thinks in the form of natural or unnatural, but more transcendental.
I think of myself as a realist only to exist, aspiring to a transcendental ideal.
so for me the ideal is not to accept the natural but to reach for the transcendental, which to me is more real than the appearances of natural or unnatural.

For me, the greater part of life is lived in the mind, beyond the physically real. How we act and operate is a manifestation of a belief (thought) formulated in the mind . Finding out the true essence of mankind's real purpose on the transcendental level is what drives my decisions in the natural................
and there lies the core of my positions. Anything that falls outside of mankind realizing his true origin, essence and purpose, falls outside of the necessary and justifiable scope of activities, regardless of what shape or form that comes in.


there also is a fundamental difference between myself and some of the persons you associate me with.....................

[Heirloom]

re wiki article: transgender behaviour in animals? eh?

seriously though, very interesting discussion all

now THIS is a very interesting question. This is a very heavy topic, and i could go on for weeks, but this format of discussion stresses me out, so I'm not sure I can participate in it.

just to clarify: Do you mean transgender or transsexual behaviour?

[Johnny]

i don't know what i mean to be honest. I was just surprised that there could be a concept of transgenderism for non-human animals. surely this is rubbish? lady pig thinks it was always meant to be a man pig, and goes to pig doctor to get prosthetic pig-penis?

and surely there can't be transexualism in pigs either?! lady pigs don't even have fancy underwear that men pigs can try on when she's out at the trough. or do they?......

[Fuuma]

i don't know what i mean to be honest. I was just surprised that there could be a concept of transgenderism for non-human animals. surely this is rubbish? lady pig thinks it was always meant to be a man pig, and goes to pig doctor to get prosthetic pig-penis?

and surely there can't be transexualism in pigs either?! lady pigs don't even have fancy underwear that men pigs can try on when she's out at the trough. or do they?......

Transgender does not imply switching your set of privates. So if male pig decided to keep the young and generally act like female pig then I guess it could be qualified as "transgender". Not too sure how prevalent this is and not really into the natural vs unnatural anyway. We live in concrete structures, use the internetz and derive status from paper with (often dead) rulers on them.

I know animals often engage in homosexual acts but then that's different. Cats lick their own assholes and I'm not about to try that, I don't really see occurances of something in the animal world as an argument for/against human behaviour.

[Johnny]

i was just being flippant, don't really know anything about it. but what is that defines gender? physical, psychological or social factors? if a man wishes to care for his children and stay off work to do it, one wouldn't typically class him as transgender, although you might say that he is taking the "normal" female role