It's All a Blur to Them (Dressing across genders)

[zamb]

Etruscan,
I really appreciate you standing up for me, however I don't think that my position is understood well enough
nor do I think it can or should be characterized as bigoted.

there is a significant difference between disagreeing with something and being intolerant of it.

EDIT: Restated entirely.

Your characterization of Zamb is unfair.

I think a lot of us have a problem with zamb's viewpoint. I think it is a bigoted viewpoint, and that saddens me. I think you're off-base and unjustified with your characterization of him though.

[theetruscan]

I think that not respecting that homosexuals are equal to you and deserve the rights you have is bigoted. I could couch that in any kind of terms, but then I would be trying to hide what I said.

If your position was actually, and this goes contrary to my understanding from our conversation, that they deserve all the rights you have: to hospital visits, living wills, inheritance, parenting, adoption, taxation, et cetera, but you want marriage to be something dictated by the church, and you don't think the church should condone those marriages then I retract my statements.

But, to my mind, there's no subtlety to this point. It is unpleasant, but it is what it is.

Perhaps I don't really understand your viewpoint, but reading back through the thread you have explicitly stated that you don't think homosexuals deserve certain rights available to you. We had a bit of a back and forth where I pointed out that your "by a majority vote of the people" was the common refrain of those opposed to the civil rights act of 1964 and so on and, well, it's all in the thread.

EDIT: For Faust below: Here's a fun one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-miscegenation_laws#Anti-miscegenation_laws_overturned_on_12_June_1967_by_Loving_v._Virginia

EDIT2: The activists seem to have one theory. The cynics like me are just waiting for another generation to die.

[Faust]

Meanwhile, New York and California both voted down gay marriage. So much for two progressive states.

[Fade to Black]

Zamb: Where does God and Jesus stand on big spending-materialstic- homophobes like yourself? I thought at least a senior citizens on this forum like yourself had a bit more sence than to attack a minority group like that.

unnecessary.

[genevieveryoko]

Meanwhile, New York and California both voted down gay marriage. So much for two progressive states.

"Against gay marriage? Then shut the fuck up and don't get one."

[genevieveryoko]

I do think we can look to apes for further studies of ourselves. It's a matter of making our biology and our intellect live in harmony, so to not force anything that doesn't need to be forced. I don't believe in forcing.

Bonobos! My Honors anatomy teacher in high school wouldn't stop talking about them...she also wouldn't stop giving us slide shows of extremely out of control genital warts, like once a week, the same slides, over and over...

[zamb]

Nowhere in any of the statements I made previously, in this thread or anywhere else, have I said that Homosexuals or any other classification of peoples are not equal to me, I am unsure of where you got that perception.
I do not believe in a world/ universe without purpose, I believe that the immortal, eternal, all powerful creator brought into being the universe, both things seen and unseen, known and unknown. that everything that exist has and was created for a purpose, that every living human being is deserving of the same rights and respect, if only for the fact that we are all creatures of the same God whose spirit dwells within us and gives us life.........

I know that in this scientific, empirical age, where everything has to be "proven" and "tested" and fit into a "logical" context, this is not a widely help view, more so, in the realm of "sophisticated" academic society, but this is what I believe and know to be true............
I do not believe that all there is to life can be seen through a materialistic, reductionist view of the world, as there is for me, a transcendental reality, which is even more important than the physical
I have said to you before, that the rights given by the state are not something I care for, nor pay significant attention to, when it comes to the subject of marriage...............I don't particularly believe that anyone should be denied hospital visits, inheritance, etc. because of sexual preferences, actually those things to me are trivial with respect to the reasons underlying my positions.

I believe that the Father created all mankind for a purpose, I believe that such purpose is clearly outlined to us, we may disagree with it, we may reject it, but it is clearly outlined. I disagree with any act, thought or intent, that brings mankind, whether individually or collectively further away from the purpose for which we were created. these acts and intents are not just sexual acts (homosexuality only being discussed now because of the nature of this thread) that being said, I am aware that in this world individuals have freedom of choice, and I am in no position to tell anyone what choices they are to make with their life, and as such I am tolerant of many things that I may disagree with.

I have many friends that are gay, some of my closet friends, individuals that I might be even willing to take a bullet for, it doesn't mean that I have to agree with everything that they do.
I have many friends that are atheist, Many members of my family are Rastafarians, do I agree with this? No. Do I love them any less? No. it just means that they have made decisions, or are on pathways that I disagree with.

I will say more later, but will give you a chage to reply

Let me ask you a question, since you think because I diagree with the practice of homosexuality, I am a bigot.
I am married,monagamous, committed to my wife, however, everyday I constantly see women that I am attracted to, andwould want to sleep with, there are times I wish I could have multiple women. The part of me that is monagamous (my mind) is in a constant battle with the part of me that wants to have sex with numerous women (my body) what does that make me?

I think that not respecting that homosexuals are equal to you and deserve the rights you have is bigoted. I could couch that in any kind of terms, but then I would be trying to hide what I said.

If your position was actually, and this goes contrary to my understanding from our conversation, that they deserve all the rights you have: to hospital visits, living wills, inheritance, parenting, adoption, taxation, et cetera, but you want marriage to be something dictated by the church, and you don't think the church should condone those marriages then I retract my statements.

But, to my mind, there's no subtlety to this point. It is unpleasant, but it is what it is.

Perhaps I don't really understand your viewpoint, but reading back through the thread you have explicitly stated that you don't think homosexuals deserve certain rights available to you. We had a bit of a back and forth where I pointed out that your "by a majority vote of the people" was the common refrain of those opposed to the civil rights act of 1964 and so on and, well, it's all in the thread.

EDIT: For Faust below: Here's a fun one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-miscegenation_laws#Anti-miscegenation_laws_overturned_on_12_June_1967_by_Loving_v._Virginia

EDIT2: The activists seem to have one theory. The cynics like me are just waiting for another generation to die.

[genevieveryoko]

I have many friends that are gay, some of my closet friends, individuals that I might be even willing to take a bullet for, it doesn't mean that I have to agree with everything that they do.
I have many friends that are atheist, Many members of my family are Rastafarians, do I agree with this? No. Do I love them any less? No. it just means that they have made decisions, or are on pathways that I disagree with.

I really like how you phrased this. You agree to disagree. Living in northern California, a lot of people that I'm close to are very heavy weed smokers and for them it is a lifestyle. It is just within my nature to prefer a sober state to an intoxicated one, but I don't think any less of these people for their "lifestyle" choice. Everybody has their own vices, or outlets if you prefer, and I think as an individual it is your responsibility to know what yours are and engage in them responsibly. Then there are those polyamorous anarchist types, and while I'm not into that either, if you get off on that and can do so peacefully then good for you!

[theetruscan]

Let me ask you a question, since you think because I diagree with the practice of homosexuality, I am a bigot.
I am married,monagamous, committed to my wife, however, everyday I constantly see women that I am attracted to, andwould want to sleep with, there are times I wish I could have multiple women. The part of me that is monagamous (my mind) is in a constant battle with the part of me that wants to have sex with numerous women (my body) what does that make me?

More later, since I'm tired, but my statement wasn't about you disagreeing with a practice. I was (I think, will look soon) clear in stating that it was because you said before that you didn't think they should have the same rights you do.

[whitney]

whether you are religious or not, believe in God, Buddha or Satan, at the very core of every human being is a need to in-distinctively categorize stuff. its so that you feel safe because you know what that is-- you can predict, for the most part, whether it will go left or right, up or down so that you can counter the move if necessary or prepare yourself in case it attacks.

i say all this because its an interesting topic this has turned into, whether homosexuals should have the same rights as heterosexuals and why some people are fighting this so hard.

people say that this isn't natural because they are so used to seeing men as only lusting after women and vice versa, women lusting after men. everywhere you go, everything you see-- it pictures a woman and a man together. there are some gay references, but thats like saying "oh! lead asian du in a blockbuster movie!" how many times do you get to say that? in the united states.

anyways its like that because its been like that due to religion, and as we are progressing further in technology, as humans, we are pushing the limit..less and less believe in God and what is left is room for those who might have repressed their feelings due to religious upbringing/environment to come out (of the closet, hate to say that phrase but at this early i can't think of a better choice)

but of course there are those who still believe, who are religious that will fight against this, and they will do so because as humans we are slow to change our beliefs, stubborn lot we are

right now its still in the middle, people are not quite used to it but its not new as well. i think people are still trying to figure out homosexuality, and the f.e.a.r. makes them want to resist accepting or suppress those who are homosexual, or control them in some way if they can't get them to hide/denounce their sexuality (by not allowing them to marry and have the same rights).

fashion is definitely helping pave the way by pushing the boundaries indirectly. its making a statement without really saying the words. visually it makes an impact and it changes the way people think without words, thats pretty powerful to me. to think there was a time when women only wore skirts and were sahms.

[LittleTombo]

Zamb:
Okay that last remark wasn't necessary.I apolegize. It just frightens me of how degrading and inhumane your posts, despite of all the "intellectual" words you choose to keep spinning this discussion with, are.Either way it's still mudthrowing. I just felt like throwing a bit back in your direction.

Equal rights for all humans despite race or gender..are both outdebated issues in most of this world.
homosexuality however are not being treated with the same ammount of respect or understanding.

There is no human nature only human behavior. And it is your human behavior that both puzzles and worries me.

[zamb]

well,
apologies accepted,
but I don't know what you are reading, whether it is my post, or you are reading something into them that isn't there.
Could you give me a quote of what it is that I said, that you thought was degrading or inhumane........

Zamb:
Okay that last remark wasn't necessary.I apolegize. It just frightens me of how degrading and inhumane your posts, despite of all the "intellectual" words you choose to keep spinning this discussion with, are.Either way it's still mudthrowing. I just felt like throwing a bit back in your direction.

Equal rights for all humans despite race or gender..are both outdebated issues in most of this world.
homosexuality however are not being treated with the same ammount of respect or understanding.

There is no human nature only human behavior. And it is your human behavior that both puzzles and worries me.

[zamb]

Whitney,
from whence cometh the need in humans to categorize things?
For me, I have no fear of homosexuals, or homosexuality, and hence I am no homophobe,............For four months I lived with a friend of mine who was a homosexual, even slept in the same bed with him. My best friend in college was gay, I have a friend in Jamaica whose house I stayed every time I visited the island before I got married, he was gay, so the ideah of fear, or whatever, doesnt not apply to me, and all of these friends know what my perspectives are, we've had deep, emotional conversations about this, but they are my friends, the love me, I love them.
the idea about moving away from religion is in a way unrealistic, there are religious people whose views on this subject are different from mine, who believe that the practice, can exist within a religious framework.
there are Non religious people who diagree with the practice, so the categorization is a little more complicated than that.

Also, there is and will forever be a place for religion in the world, there are indeed some aspects of religion that needs to go away, and some religions all together, but here we go, I might again be called a bigot for saying this.............
Scientific knowledge and himan advancement in a technological sense cannot replace the need for the religious, God is not, as many would beleive, a projection of the Human Psyche, but a living all knowing, all poweful being.............. as long as life in man exist (its sourch not being biology, but the human spirit imputed to him by God), there is good and evil, love and hatred, there will be a need for religion

whether you are religious or not, believe in God, Buddha or Satan, at the very core of every human being is a need to in-distinctively categorize stuff. its so that you feel safe because you know what that is-- you can predict, for the most part, whether it will go left or right, up or down so that you can counter the move if necessary or prepare yourself in case it attacks.

i say all this because its an interesting topic this has turned into, whether homosexuals should have the same rights as heterosexuals and why some people are fighting this so hard.

people say that this isn't natural because they are so used to seeing men as only lusting after women and vice versa, women lusting after men. everywhere you go, everything you see-- it pictures a woman and a man together. there are some gay references, but thats like saying "oh! lead asian du in a blockbuster movie!" how many times do you get to say that? in the united states.

anyways its like that because its been like that due to religion, and as we are progressing further in technology, as humans, we are pushing the limit..less and less believe in God and what is left is room for those who might have repressed their feelings due to religious upbringing/environment to come out (of the closet, hate to say that phrase but at this early i can't think of a better choice)

but of course there are those who still believe, who are religious that will fight against this, and they will do so because as humans we are slow to change our beliefs, stubborn lot we are

right now its still in the middle, people are not quite used to it but its not new as well. i think people are still trying to figure out homosexuality, and the f.e.a.r. makes them want to resist accepting or suppress those who are homosexual, or control them in some way if they can't get them to hide/denounce their sexuality (by not allowing them to marry and have the same rights).

fashion is definitely helping pave the way by pushing the boundaries indirectly. its making a statement without really saying the words. visually it makes an impact and it changes the way people think without words, thats pretty powerful to me. to think there was a time when women only wore skirts and were sahms.

[viceroy]

You "love" your "gay" friends...but this does not change the fact they are, in your mind (and correct me if I am wrong), going to burn in hell. Surely "God" will not allow (the "sin" of) fags into the paradise that is "heaven."

[theetruscan]

Yeah, they're going straight to hell with those who wear mixed fabric.