Dries Van Noten F/W 07-08

[laika]

Re: Dries Van Noten F/W 07-08



Bags--they are really fantastic, imo, and I am not usually a bag lady. The last one is my favorite. [G]

[Johnny]

Re: Dries Van Noten F/W 07-08

I agre with all those who say this is better from Dries. Some of the outfits are really quite stunning (I love the deep deep red colour and the cut of the big paisley print dress). However Dries is pretty same-y year on year now, and I think it's really just hit or miss as to whether one particular seasons' version is better than anothers. The current SS collection is really very dull. It's just rows and rows of drapey richly-colourful clothes. I have a feeling that this collection will sort of look the same in the stores. It just kind of bores me a little I guess. I don't see anything newor intersting here, although there are some nice clothes, which of course is no bad thing, and is a good deal more than a lot of designers seem to be able to manage.

[Faust]

Re: Dries Van Noten F/W 07-08

I like the last two bags, very cool. I like the hardware, curious to see what's going on there.

[Seventh]

Re: Dries Van Noten F/W 07-08

[quote user="laika"]

Honestly, sometimes I think these writers are full of crap, pointing out all these "subtle" references for us mere mortals. The colors and the patterns are obviously Vienna-inspired, but I don't see any literal interpretation of, or direct reference to Schiele. He could be drawing on any number of Austrian artists from that circle here. (If I am missing some overt link to Schiele, please point it out.)

Dries can definitely be a little tourist-y, with all his various cultural appropriations, but I don't think he's ever literal enough to be called reductive. The Kara Walker thing is very different, I think, because it is so literal and explicit. I'm still waiting to see a detail shot of the pattern, because I sure hope Ann isn't putting images of lynching and rape on her clothes (!). I can see where one could find this reductive, especially given the political and historical context of the art work in question. But I think the way Ann uses art in her work is different from the norm--she seems to feel a really deep, emotional kinship with the work process of certain artists. The interesting thing for me, in this instance, is how she's transposing this particular use of silhouette, and of black and white into her own medium. I can see the connection to Kara Walker in all the garments she made, not just the actual prints. The prints are like a cipher of her thinking.

[/quote]

Good points. I was just responding to what was written above about Dries, if he was simply using that era as a reference point, rather than lifting the parts of Schiele's drawings, (and I don't know, because I haven't seen the details either!) I don't have any problem with that at all.

The more I think about it the more I realize that the issue is complicated. It might be because I don't think too much of Kara Walker's work, but I think Ann D provides a much richer world of images and emotions (in her clothing) that Walker (in her art) and putting Walker's work into the collection almost limits it for me. I agree that Ann D.'s collaboration with Jim Dine was more successful, perhaps because her clothes gave more prominence and space to the images than the current collection, it felt more like a collaboration between the two than just a reference. Rei at Comme seems quite different to me, she is on a Warhol/Pop trip of trying to break apart the image and meaning of certain icons, I don't think that she is that successful with it, but at least she takes a very active role (a response to the image--rather than just a reference).

Thanks for the interesting posts.

Oh, and I like the bags. Is that a nightstick buried in the handle of many of the bags? So you can whack someone over the head if they try to grab it?![:D]

[laika]

Re: Dries Van Noten F/W 07-08



Thanks, Seventh. Very interesting to talk about this with you. I agree, the issue is very complicated--I was having a hard time getting my head around it as well. Think you are right to distinguish what Rei is doing from these other collaborations though. I'll respond about the other stuff in the Ann thread...still need to think about it. I am awfully slow these days. [:S]

So funny--I noticed that the [negative] style.com review doesn't even mention Schiele, Vienna, etc.....she just refers to it (pejoratively) as "Indian paisley" (rolls eyes).

yeah, that must be a nightstick, lol--for a Granny! I have a bag from this season with the same hardware, and I think it is actually inspired by knitting bags. [:)]

[Johnny]

Re: Dries Van Noten F/W 07-08



Interesting Laika and Seventh, good chat. I had never really thought of comme being like Warhol in that sense, but I can certainly see it. There is the objectification of icons and the attempt to dissasociate those icons from what they usually connote.More I think about it more I think it really is a very striaght copy ofwhat Warhol was doing - the repitition of particular cultural icons as a pure graphic representation.There's perhpas some overlap here with what YY was doing with his monograms, but I think that his attempts were much more confused, although prettier to look at. There is a least a purity to what comme did in this area - the idea that you don't muck about with the image itself (hence the no doubt great number of IP lawyers that comme must use!)

I'm not really a fan of the other type of art-referencing either. Iwonder what the point of it is. What is Ann trying to say when she references an artist's work in this decorative way? It seems too literal.Of course she may be influenced by this work in a general way, but why simply impose it onto the garments, rather than just allow the garment to take shape with this influence in mind.Is that what Dries was doing re Scheile?

[Seventh]

Re: Dries Van Noten F/W 07-08



hi Johnny,
I am not sure what Dries was trying to do with Scheile, (does anyone have close-ups of the collection?) I guess I see a difference between a designer taking an active or passive role to the art. With comme, it is definately active (ie. taking the Stones logo and breaking apart the iconography--however banal that process might be). I should say that I like Rei a lot, I love her strength and attitude, and the way that she always seems to be pushing at concepts right to the breaking point in her collections--just sometimes, like the logo stuff, I just don't think it works.

I totally agree with Johnny that there is a purity to commes actions vs. yohji. I hated the yohji logo designs, i thought he was trying to be cute but the work just ended up tacky. I didn't see much conceptual thought going into YY's logos at all, frankly, ('logo as pattern', whatever...)

I think if a designer takes and artist or era as an influence (an active role of interpretation), really great things can emerge from it. But if all Ann, Dries (or whoever) is doing is just transposing a drawing or painting onto fabric, I would call that passive and robbing both works of some type of energy. Because then the drawing/design just becomes a reference (code or jargon) for some type of cultural knowledge ("oh, hey, thats a Jim Dine...") Even if the designer meant it as an homage, i think it often doesn't work that way.

Ok, think I am talking in circles now.

[laika]

Re: Dries Van Noten F/W 07-08



Good comments, guys. I do agree with the Warhol/Rei comparison. The
Japanese flag collection makes a lot more sense when you look at it as
a sort of iconoclasm.
I think it's very forced to extend this to
Yohji's monograms, but that's another conversation altogether. (I
don't like this "more pure" line of argument though--think it's rather
bs to refer to Rei's motives as pure at the expense of Yohji.
Especially when we are comparing her to Warhol!)


Anyway, back to Dries. Here are some detail shots from style--they are not so great, unfortunately, and seem to focus more on the models than the clothes. [:@] Again, I don't really see the reference to Schiele, apart from the extensive use of ochre/yellow and the touches of red. The prints look like stylized paisley to me. Not sure if there is some connection to be made between paisley and Austrian painting....

[casem]

Re: Dries Van Noten F/W 07-08



I don't know enough about itto join in theartistic debate here,but I wanted to add to the choir of praise for this collection. The color choices are divine, it's subdued but very rich, as good or better than Christopher Bailey's use of color. These are my two favorite looks, I love how the yellow (is this what we are calling ochre?) pops against the shiny grey pants. The second look, a like how the wooly texture of the top (asymmetrical zip is a plus too) contrasts the almost liquid metal skirt. The only thing I'm not sold on are those clogs...

[Seventh]

Re: Dries Van Noten F/W 07-08

[quote user="laika"]

Good comments, guys. I do agree with the Warhol/Rei comparison. The
Japanese flag collection makes a lot more sense when you look at it as
a sort of iconoclasm.
I think it's very forced to extend this to
Yohji's monograms, but that's another conversation altogether. (I
don't like this "more pure" line of argument though--think it's rather
bs to refer to Rei's motives as pure at the expense of Yohji.
Especially when we are comparing her to Warhol!)


Anyway, back to Dries. Here are some detail shots from style--they are not so great, unfortunately, and seem to focus more on the models than the clothes. [:@] Again, I don't really see the reference to Schiele, apart from the extensive use of ochre/yellow and the touches of red. The prints look like stylized paisley to me. Not sure if there is some connection to be made between paisley and Austrian painting....

[/quote]

I am coming back to this a bit late (sorry), but looking at the detail shots, there is nothing that links this to Schiele at all... The colors are incredible and the mixture of texture and print pattern, wow. Fantastic collection. Laika, you are going to be very, very poor (but happy) this winter...

re. the "more pure"/"less pure" argument--your right, terrible way to refer to the motives of Rei and Yohji. Honestly, I hate logos (I also dislike Warhol), so it is hard for me to be positive about this. But Rei's vocabulary of design (coming from a media background), perhaps allows her to manipulate (demolish) the icon into some more interesting. Yohji's vocabulary (his strength is perhaps the movement, drape and flow of clothing), is, I personally think, less suited to dealing with the iconography of the logo. But I prefer them both when they are logo-less!

[Faust]

Re: Dries Van Noten F/W 07-08

/\ Yay, finally someone else who doesn't like Warhol! [51]

[laika]

Re: Dries Van Noten F/W 07-08



lol, Faust, I am not a fan of Warhol either, although I do find
him a fascinating and important character. I loved Bowie's portrayal
of him in Basquiat.

I'm going to see some of this in person
next week when I go to the trunk show--will definitely report back! I
suspect my fall purchases will be mainly Junya and Dries. Ann is going
to be very expensive, I think.

Seventh, have you read
Smithson's critique of Duchamp? It's very good, imo, and I think it
could be extended to Warhol. He says, (I'm chopping it up a little),

"there
is no viable dialectic in Duchamp because he is only trading on the
alienated object and bestowing on this object a kind of
mystification....Duchamp offers a sanctification for alienated objects,
so you get a generation of manufactured goods. It is a complete denial
of the work process, and it is very mechanical too....He has a certain
contempt for the work process and here I think he is sort of playing
the aristocrat."

I
think there is definitely a strain of this
"trading on the alienated object" in Rei's work with icons. I would
like to think that Yohji is doing something different and less
cynical--perhaps connecting the monogram to the signature (his
signature is his logo, after all) and re-connecting both with the work
of the artist thereby. I am probably being too romantic though. [:$]

[Faust]

Re: Dries Van Noten F/W 07-08

[quote user="laika"]

lol, Faust, I am not a fan of Warhol either, although I do find
him a fascinating and important character. I loved Bowie's portrayal
of him in Basquiat.

I'm going to see some of this in person
next week when I go to the trunk show--will definitely report back! I
suspect my fall purchases will be mainly Junya and Dries. Ann is going
to be very expensive, I think.

Seventh, have you read
Smithson's critique of Duchamp? It's very good, imo, and I think it
could be extended to Warhol. He says, (I'm chopping it up a little),

"there
is no viable dialectic in Duchamp because he is only trading on the
alienated object and bestowing on this object a kind of
mystification....Duchamp offers a sanctification for alienated objects,
so you get a generation of manufactured goods. It is a complete denial
of the work process, and it is very mechanical too....He has a certain
contempt for the work process and here I think he is sort of playing
the aristocrat."

I
think there is definitely a strain of this
"trading on the alienated object" in Rei's work with icons. I would
like to think that Yohji is doing something different and less
cynical--perhaps connecting the monogram to the signature (his
signature is his logo, after all) and re-connecting both with the work
of the artist thereby. I am probably being too romantic though. [:$]
[/quote]

Yes, I agree, he is important - but he sucks.

I can actually see Rei wanting to be Duchamp. But the problem with this is the same problem I have where art does not involve artistic difficulty (maybe that's what Smithson means by "denial of the work process." ) To me, you can only do something new and easy once, like Malevich's Black Square. The rest is kinda bullshit. In that sense painting the mustache on the Mona Lisa is a gesture against art canon, sending a urinal to the Armory show is a gesture against the "pretty things" kitschy aesthetics of that era. Duchamp himself said something along the lines that Pop-Art is bullshit, because it appropriates the gesture that's already been made by Dada. What was Rei's gesture with the Rolling Stones? Honestly? Is she telling us that it's Ok to usurp a pop image, 30 years after Warhol? Please, BTDT.

[nqth]

Re: Dries Van Noten F/W 07-08



It doesn't mean that one should not keep trying (to destroy all the old things, to negate all existing, to make new born). And this was done once by punk, too.

[Faust]

Re: Dries Van Noten F/W 07-08

Look who's in the background!