WTF

[mass]

i always thought i was alone in thinking that... actually i had a somewhat similar discussion with fuuma just this week.

[Faust]

Not at all. Maybe what this reveals is that it was always crap in the first place.

you rebel, you!

[AKA*NYC]

i think the backlash against dali is something akin to a stock market "correction." nevertheless dali strikes me as far superior in style and substance to just about every painter alive today.

[laika]

you rebel, you!

yes indeed, i'm a woman on the edge!!!

wire and mass, no problem...someone has got to keep standards up around here dammit...

[Faust]

So, what is it about Dali that you guys don't like?

[Jorge Hache]

For me the hype, i remember some old interviews showed here in Mexico, on open tv, where everyone was talking about how great "the master" is, and how talented, and Dali was dancing, painting, making a clown of himself to entertain the masses, after that everyone even dogs, were wearing Dali's t-shirts, calendars everywhere, all the pseudo intellectuals were talking about the genius bla bla bla

It's like when Miro was doing random drawings on napkins and immediately selling them for thousands to the legions of worshipers

So, what is it about Dali that you guys don't like?

[Faust]

I agree and that's the exact sentiment I expressed earlier, so let me rephrase the question. What is it about Dali's work that you guys don't like?

[droogist]

^ For starters, he was a lousy painter. (That being said, I don't believe that one needs to be a good painter to make good art, or even good paintings. But most of Dali's paintings were lousy.)

Glancing over the last page...Faust, I know you've already conceded that your personal definition of kitsch might differ from the norm, but I think for the purposes of discussion it's worth mentioning that traditionally, kitch is not defined as "high" culture degraded, but rather as "low" culture elevated.

[Chinorlz]

I agree and that's the exact sentiment I expressed earlier, so let me rephrase the question. What is it about Dali's work that you guys don't like?

I think that definitely is the more appropriate and more well placed question Faust. I'd be surprised to hear some naysayers of his work whereas many could shake their heads at his behavior and practices... one of the shadiest I think was him accepting payment in exchange for signing blank litho paper so the dealer could print whatever they'd want on it.. and thus the (relatively) cheap masses of Dali's prints of Dante's inferno that show up on ebay that are indeed signed by him.


as for his work, I'm definitely a fan. He created these fantastical scenes with little things here and there for the viewer to find every time they look at the pieces.... reminicent (although in this sense pales in comparison to) of Bosch. Fans of one artist would likely be a fan of the other IMO.

[Fuuma]

^ For starters, he was a lousy painter. (That being said, I don't believe that one needs to be a good painter to make good art, or even good paintings. But most of Dali's paintings were lousy.)

Glancing over the last page...Faust, I know you've already conceded that your personal definition of kitsch might differ from the norm, but I think for the purposes of discussion it's worth mentioning that traditionally, kitch is not defined as "high" culture degraded, but rather as "low" culture elevated.

It doesn't even have to be elevated but if it is (say an "artist" does it) then it becomes an ironic and self-reflexive work of modern art challenging the diktat of traditional (read academic) art and expressing the zeitgeist of our time that is current pop culture.

[Fuuma]

I think that definitely is the more appropriate and more well placed question Faust. I'd be surprised to hear some naysayers of his work whereas many could shake their heads at his behavior and practices... one of the shadiest I think was him accepting payment in exchange for signing blank litho paper so the dealer could print whatever they'd want on it.. and thus the (relatively) cheap masses of Dali's prints of Dante's inferno that show up on ebay that are indeed signed by him.


as for his work, I'm definitely a fan. He created these fantastical scenes with little things here and there for the viewer to find every time they look at the pieces.... reminicent (although in this sense pales in comparison to) of Bosch. Fans of one artist would likely be a fan of the other IMO.

I don't see much Bosch in Dali aside from a taste for the grotesque, however Chirico with his dream logic and reflection on temporality is a good example of an artist that shared some of his sensibilities.

[deleuze]

It doesn't even have to be elevated but if it is (say an "artist" does it) then it becomes an ironic and self-reflexive work of modern art challenging the diktat of traditional (read academic) art and expressing the zeitgeist of our time that is current pop culture.

That pretty much defines Warhol who I still see as kitsch despite the irony of his work. Bringing this back to Benjamin I believe there is a way to challenge the "diktat of traditional art" without it being kitsch. Duchamp's ready-mades (e.g. L.H.O.O.Q.) do precisely this without appealing to commodity fetishism which in Benjamin's terms I interpret as resulting from artistic politics. Duchamp on the other hand was more interested in making political art, challenging the aura inherent in the traditional painted works through a process of defer-ence; his own ready-mades begging to be plagiarized/vandalized by some other. This invocation of the masses to create through participation makes art not only popular but also awakes it from the passive consumerism of kitsch.

[noerml]

hm.. i had to do research a bit on the internet..but now it seems kinda clear at least that makes most sense to me especially in the historical context the word was created, that kitsch is derived from "verkitschen" which is jidish for foisting sth. upon so

now the english semantics do indeed differ from the orginal german word, however i, being from munich where the word was (being) born, would define kitsch as everything with an explicitly exaggerrated sentimental aspect, lacking an artistic approach or detoriating/oversimplifying an original artistic concept with an affinity to colorful gaiety

So taking "kitsch" as a trivial approach on art, Dali would indeed be kitsch, at least for me.
to me dali always was the artist, but never produced art. There seems to lack the "inbetween" between visuals and concept. Hard to put that...hm..

And it might be argueable that our more and more computer-rendered reality in movies/movies/newspapers/pc-games/interet,,,well call it media... numbs us to Dali's work

[Faust]

It doesn't even have to be elevated but if it is (say an "artist" does it) then it becomes an ironic and self-reflexive work of postmodern art challenging the diktat of traditional (read academic) art and expressing the zeitgeist of our time that is current pop culture.

[Heirloom]

everytime faust added to this thread, I think "What the Faust?"