WTF

[Faust]

Hmmmm, well, I'd agree with Laika, his art is cheap. His technical ability aside, which only plays a part in the value of his work, he didn't really follow along with the artistic movement of surrealism or the IDEAS, the most important part.

He was very early on expelled from the surrealist movement, for supposed nazi sympathizing (see the titles of his paintings). He moved to Spain, and painted over-done examples of "surrealist" work, that were sold to art collectors. Does this make his work a bit hollow? I would think so.

That being said, I do like looking at his paintings. However, I find much more substance in the writing of Lautréamont and Breton.

Well, Andre Breton was an asshole who expelled anyone who did not agree with him, so there is not much value there...

[Faust]

But borrowing has no effect on the value of the original cultural artifact. To use your example of Dali-printed napkins (assuming, of course, that we accept the napkins as a legitimate example of kitsch, and the original Dali as something of great value in high culture): no matter how many of them they print up, as long as the relationship between reproduction and original remains transparent, we can't rightly speak of a degradation of the original work. An ocean of crappy reproductions does nothing to lower its aesthetic value - it's still the same painting, after all - and, on the other hand, probably does quite a bit to increase its monetary value. The only real damage the work can be argued to have sustained is to its psychological value - the too-many-people-like-this-so-it-can't-be-good effect - which, though it clearly exists, is entirely subjective, not strictly rational, and not quantifiable by any objective means.

An art theory prof of mine had an anecdote that illustrates all this rather nicely: he used to worked at the MoMA, and at one point when the museum was strapped for cash, the directors decided to sell 3 works from the permanent collection. Their method for determining which 3 works was to send an intern down to the gift shop to ask for the 3 bestselling postcards.

I should have clarified in my original statement that I was referring to the art-theoretical definition of kitsch, by the way...

That's the thing - I believe it does debase the original work as time passes and it's embraced by the masses for no good reason, it can lose its meaning, and therefore its value as a cultural artifact. Like I said, many times I've thought "enough of royal hunting or cherub paintings, no matter how masterfully rendered." I don't know if you've ever felt that way.

[black horizons]

Well, Andre Breton was an asshole who expelled anyone who did not agree with him, so there is not much value there...

That doesn't change the fact that he was a supporter of a fascist government, no matter how you look at it, that doesn't mesh with Surreal ideas. If his art has no ideas to back it up, or ideas that don't fit, it is just some pretty pictures.

Surrealism was a movement that was about expanding human freedoms, uniting the conscious with the unconscious. It was a critique of society at the time. Does this have anything to do with Franco or Hitler?

[laika]

Faust, I think droogist's point is that this

I believe it does debase the original work as time passes and it's embraced by the masses for no good reason, it can lose its meaning, and therefore its value as a cultural artifact. Like I said, many times I've thought "enough of royal hunting or cherub paintings, no matter how masterfully rendered." I don't know if you've ever felt that way.

is basically this

The only real damage the work can be argued to have sustained is to its psychological value - the too-many-people-like-this-so-it-can't-be-good effect - which, though it clearly exists, is entirely subjective, not strictly rational, and not quantifiable by any objective means.

In other words, you may personally feel that an art work has been debased through popularization, but that feeling does not make the work kitsch. Especially since debasement is not a component of the [culturally understood] definition of the word.

[Fuuma]

That doesn't change the fact that he was a supporter of a fascist government, no matter how you look at it, that doesn't mesh with Surreal ideas. If his art has no ideas to back it up, or ideas that don't fit, it is just some pretty pictures.

Surrealism was a movement that was about expanding human freedoms, uniting the conscious with the unconscious. It was a critique of society at the time. Does this have anything to do with Franco or Hitler?

No, Breton was into communist totalitarism, which is much nicer because the proletariat is involved at some point, or so I've been told. To be fair this was the end of the war/20s so it made sense and Breton, always the magi, viewed his role as independant but parallel with the commies, wanting to achieve a total liberation that went beyond economic freedom, which caused a lot of friction with the party. An uneasy marriage between ultimate realists and the pope of the inconscious can't be anything but unstable.

[Faust]

Faust, I think droogist's point is that this



is basically this



In other words, you may personally feel that an art work has been debased through popularization, but that feeling does not make the work kitsch. Especially since debasement is not a component of the [culturally understood] definition of the word.

Is this your personal opinion?

[laika]

Is this your personal opinion?

Nope, nothing personal about it. Definitions are a matter of cultural consensus, not of opinion.

I definitely sympathize with what you are describing though. Whenever something of deep personal significance to us becomes popular, we inevitably experience it as somehow cheapened and watered down and even feel alienated from it....no doubt we've all felt this. However, the experience is so subjective and personal as to be impossible to generalize.

Perhaps we need to coin a new word for this phenomenon instead of imposing a pre-existing definition on it? It would be an interesting topic for an article...

[Faust]

/\ Haha, smooth! It surely would. I think I will interview Robert Hughes for it. What do you think?!

[theaddict]

Every season i think it cant get worse with Dior Homme...and every season i have to admit that i was wrong...looking at the LVR Dior Homme pics i have to say: WTF???
"Lets Rock", "Spider", "Scoobie Doo", paired with colours that would make every Ed Hardy fan jealous...i dont get it...do people really buy this stuff?

[Fade to Black]

the orange overdye jeans are $640 now, as i learned from the new GQ

and yeah pipcleo was right, stacking is dead. the model was wearin em with some kinda boat shoes and hemmed until no break whatsoever

hedi's vision is long gone, all that's left are the photos he shot for Prada ss09

[theaddict]

No doubt that this is not Hedis Dior since some time, but that it is still getting worse and worse...

[Fade to Black]

i think it would be quite appropriate for Hedi Slimane never came back to fashion a la Helmut Lang, concentrating on his sculpture and photography instead. Don't think the fashion world as it is now deserves a comeback from him.

peeps should be thankful Yohji is still hangin around the game.

[Canaduh0415]

Atelier is carrying CHATAV..I know the line from Maxfield..never been a favorite....couple years ago they were doing tight cashmere hoodies with Skull stencils all over the back.......do not know what to say..I am shocked.

[Casius]

Atelier is carrying CHATAV..I know the line from Maxfield..never been a favorite....couple years ago they were doing tight cashmere hoodies with Skull stencils all over the back.......do not know what to say..I am shocked.

I was going to bring this up as well.....I am at a loss for words.

[Fade to Black]

lol Joyce tried carrying Chatav for a while

I haven't seen it there in a while. Mastermind is still around, i *think* Libertine is still here, the converse slip ons dropped so they probably are.