WTF

[Lane]

what are we to expect from people who simply practice retrospective voting? its a never ending cycle, politics is nonsense. I don't think I'll ever be hungry for turd sandwiches.

[Nikov]

so getting wealthy from other means is ok?

you mean by some mean other than fraud? yeah, that's ok.

how about if one of my clients is an evil bank? or what about the interest you collect from having your money in one of these evil entities?

well, you're not really engaging in fraud, are you?

The fed and the gov't who forced banks to lend to anyone with an SS# are just as guilty and just as complicit.

The fed never forced these banks to bundle subprime mortgages together and sell them at very high ratings, knowing full well that they were worthless assets.

[Patroklus]

so getting wealthy from other means is ok?

People have a right to make money. I don't necessarily have a problem with John Paul Gaultier being fabulously wealthy because he made that money be being very creative, very talented, and very wise with his business.

how about if one of my clients is an evil bank? or what about the interest you collect from having your money in one of these evil entities? Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I guess OWS is boosting the economy by way of middle class NYPD officers burning overtime like it's meth. The fed and the gov't who forced banks to lend to anyone with an SS# are just as guilty and just as complicit.

In my experience most OWS protesters are aware of this and are also against the Federal Reserve overwhelmingly and increasingly coming out against the Obama administration. I'd wager that most OWSers were Obama supporters four years ago but many are going to be voting for Ron Paul or a third party in the coming election.

[Lane]

my cynicism won't allow me to buy that Patroklus, but I hope so.




Also, no one is saying banks don't have responsibility in this, but if you look at major economic crisis in the past, a big determinant in the severity of them was that governments practiced loose monetary policies. It's essentially what allows these banks to even have the possibility to engage in these practices. They are able to diffuse the costs of the risk of these investments, and then also ask for bailouts when the shit hits the fan. The one supplying them with the ability to engage in these practices, and also become their safety net (bailouts) is the government...

[cjbreed]

forgive the rant.

but kunk, OWS knows this. thats what it is about. both sides are crooked.

i hear this a lot. that the movement is a failure because they lack focus. Each of the protestors is selfishly looking for a handout. They are looking out for number one and just wanting something for nothing. They are unwilling to work. They are lazy and entitled and ignorant. blah blah blah

1. The movement has purposefully remained without a clear "leader" and clear "mission statement" in order that it may grow. Each person needs to feel like the leader. Each person needs to feel empowered. You don't even have to know what you are talking about to know something is wrong. OWS allows everyone that feels this to get involved. The point of that is to get people talking and acting and engaging in the democratic process. That's all. People need to get off the sidelines. Thats what democracy is about. The corrupt establishment has the money and the power, so we need the numbers.

BUT, if I had to say what the one clear message of the movement is, it would be this: THE SEPARATION OF CORPORATION AND STATE. We need to get the money out of politics. The system itself is broken and corrupt. That should be pretty obvious at this point.

2. Consider this. New census data released shows we have record high poverty in this country. It’s up to 16 percent or 49.1 million Americans (that’s over five New York Cities). We have the worst wealth inequality in the industrialized world (meaning we’re on par with some third world countries). We have the highest health care costs in the world. And a recent study by the Economic Policy Institute notes, “U.S. productivity grew by 62.5 percent from 1989 to 2010, far more than real hourly wages for both private-sector and state/local government workers, which grew 12 percent in the same period.” Basically Americans are working much (much) harder for much (much) less. Pair that with the fact U.S. businesses are making record profits and that’s why Americans have taken to the pothole-laden streets to protest.

Keep in mind many major companies pay effectively zero income tax - http://thinkprogress.org/economy/201...ions-no-taxes/

Everyone works hard not to get cheated out of their fair share. In the past 30 years, due to gains in technology, productivity rose but salaries when adjusted for inflation decreased for the middle class. The extra wealth accumulated at the top 1%. They then use that wealth to influence politicians. When wealth that is concentrated in the hands of a few is one of the main influences in politics then society is no longer a democracy, it is a plutocracy.

That is what the protest is about. We all work hard and we all want to be treated fairly and we want the rule of law to be restored such that it applies to everyone in society and that the wealthy are not exempt from their actions. Corporations are needed; unethical behavior and corruption aren't needed.

PS - kunk, i know that you know all this. i just think u hate dirty hippies. i do too lol

[cjbreed]

lemme go ahead and get this out of the way:

lol too long didn't read

[Patroklus]

PS - kunk, i know that you know all this. i just think u hate dirty hippies. i do too lol

where my image came from: http://www.thepaincomics.com/
scroll down to the artist's statement and you'll find a man that believes in OWS and also thinks it's full of annoying trustafarians.

But look: I despise those feckless hippies and their goddamn drum circles, and I'm still going down there every day, because I feel like I can’t not be there. Even if you're not going, let me know what you think about all this. We may be the only two people on our respective sides who are in any contact with each other and as such we are like diplomats from two great powers at war. We should keep the lines of communication open.

[kunk75]

i will try and articulate my position. at first I admired what they were doing, that someone was standing against something for chrissakes as typically, they print money, they manipulate gas prices, etc. while we proudly bend over and watch reality tv. it quickly turned to disgust as it went the way all parties/movements do. I mean fuck, even the tea party was mildly entertaining for 10 minutes. It pretty quickly unraveled into junkies, losers and utopian-seeking current and former liberal arts majors whining with not even a 12th grade understanding of our political system. I guess I am more disgusted by the climate than them; it's ballsy for some dems to try and co-opt the ideals of the ows. I mean, at least the repubs have been smart enough to shut the fuck up by and large-a first for them. If nothing else, I suppose it made some people ask questions, but sadly they won't get any answers. We have a 2-party system married to fucking everyone but corporations and government employees, feels closer to national socialism than anything else. I don't see how a bunch of dirt bombs will change this. And the people who are truly fucked are too busy working menial jobs to survive to go and join movements. The guys making sure you have strawberries in winter are suffering, not benington grads who are finding themselves and looking to get stones and laid.

[copacetic]

this might sound like sophistry, but it doesn't matter what the OWS protesters may or may not know.

the guy in the tent may not understand the economics, but that doesn't change that fact that he's on the right side of the debate, and the right side of history.

what i mean is the following: suppose that the guy in the tent did also happened to be a professor of economics. he'd still be compelled to sit in the tent. the result would be the same. you can't, on a person-by-person basis, say that a mastery of some admittedly complex ideas is a prerequisite for protesting.

also consider, kunk, that whatever understanding you think you have about the economics of the situation, the bank quants would probably have a pretty good laugh at the pretense of a layperson understanding the "truth".

[kunk75]

yeah, sophistry it sounds like jedi.

[copacetic]

maybe this is better:

you don't have to be an expert in something to be able to responsibly protest that thing.

during the civil rights movement, the opposition claimed that it was all of bunch of uneducated rabble-rousers who were more interested in causing chaos than effecting change. most of the people in the movement didn't have a perfect, scholarly understanding of what to demand and how to demand it, but that didn't change the fact that the backbone of the movement was, in the middle and late stages, educated/cosmopolitan/etc.

by the way, there are experts affiliated with OWS. occupy chicago, for instance, has featured some great public lectures by professors from u chicago. are they the backbone of the movement? no, not now. give it time.

[beardown]

I think the problem is that most Americans only know how to deal in extremes and hyperbole. And you can't take a movement that is just getting legs and try to contain it to a handful of descriptive sentences.

I don't think it's an issue of 'dems trying to adopt the ideals' as it is that liberals are way more open to the idea of regulation and change. The tea party started out as something that had potential until it sold its ass to the Koch Brothers who bought it and packaged it as a 'grassroots movement' after injecting it will millions of dollars to protect their interests specifically. They spent a year and a half looking for Obama's birth certificate and trying to prove that he was a communist muslim from Kenya instead of actually trying to adopt an attitude of change. And then laughably, their politicians came out of the closet as corporatists and puppets and we all found out that an entire sector of the middle class just collectively shoved a dagger into their own throats.

Change is good. I believe regulation is good. I'm an artist but I spent almost 4 years studying the labor movement and I like the fact that my nation allowed people to fall into a comfortable middle class instead of making them downwardly mobile.

I do really well financially. I know a lot of very wealthy people. That's neither here nor there. The bottom line is that the powers that be created an environment where even if you're responsible, reasonable, educated and experienced, you can still end up making $13.00 per hour without the benefit of healthcare, a pension, any kind of investment options and barely any sick days. But if you're really, really good, you can stay here for 8 years and earn TWO full WEEKS of paid vacation days. Europeans should love that. It's true.

In other news, HEY GUYS, LOOK WHAT I FOUND ON REDDIT: One legged pants!

[kunk75]

regulation maybe, and liberals maybe, but not the current democratic party. The barney franks of the world pushed for defacto deregulation of the housing industry, which led to forced no doc mortgages which led, as usual, to banks exploiting the situation for gain. Oh, and sweet pant(s).

[TheThief]

Someone should place a regulation that company Tripp which prevents them from making clothes.

[theetruscan]

The fed and the gov't who forced banks to lend to anyone with an SS# are just as guilty and just as complicit.

Do some research. This is embarrassing.