Your recent purchases

[Carcass]

I'd love to donate my skin to a good designer when I die. And i'm not joking.

I was actually thinking of posting something along these lines in the random fashion thoughts thread, but I figured it would be creepy. Less creepy in practice, I suppose.

I'd totally do it, though. I'd also wear my dog as boots or gloves after it died. Might as well not waste that good skin. That's not the issue for a lot of vegans, though. It's more about the mass maltreatment of animals for the process. If every animal used for food and leather died naturally before it was processed, then we'd have happy leather-wearing vegans, I think.

[Nikov]

The fact that we consume and use animals for so many things ensures their survival more so than if we left them alone in the wild. The reason why I feel this is the case is people that use them for profitable gain have an incentive to prevent their extinction from taking place. By producing all these man made alternatives we just pollute the planet, and cause animal habitats to be damaged more so in the long term.

im not so sure about that statement. many species have become extinct or endangered because they were hunted for profitable gain, and no effort was made to ensure their survival by the people hunting them.

[Lane]

cuz they were still in the wild, and weren't allowed to be owned as property.....controversial subject but I believe property ownership changes the rules of the game.

governments would regulate it a bit, by forbidding people to hunt them if they were endangered, but this caused a black market for smuggling these animals for those willing to pay top dollar.

Many african countries banned the hunting of elephants, but this didn't change the danger in extinction, it simply raised the price to the point that those only willing to enter the black market could obtain what they wanted.

Commercialization allows for some usage, and protective measures for the animals who are left in the wild and simply enter into a useless endangered species list. Property owners have obvious incentives to not allow a depletion in their supply.

[Faust]

My first Raf piece, from the F/W 05-06 collection. The material and cut are excellent, and I'm glad I got this as a present cos I don't think I would ever experiment with anything by Raf using my funds.





FYI I am a big 48 and this is a 52 and fits me perfect.

Fantastic piece, and yes, it was super slim cut and I was overweight at the time, was pretty upset I couldn't get it. This should go into the archives section for sure.

[Faust]

The fact that we consume and use animals for so many things ensures their survival more so than if we left them alone in the wild. The reason why I feel this is the case is people that use them for profitable gain have an incentive to prevent their extinction from taking place. By producing all these man made alternatives we just pollute the planet, and cause animal habitats to be damaged more so in the long term.

However, I find vegans also have an obsession with not causing pain to animals as well so I dunno how to address that aspect well. I'm not fine with shoving hundreds of chickens into confined cages, but I don't see what really is ideal. All I can say is where do we draw the line? Err, do plants feel pain? lol

"It's Ok to eat fish, 'cause they don't have any feelings."

Let's add more fuel to the fire.

1. To answer casem, people (myself included) don't like those vegans that feel morally superior. They are not that far from Christian evangelicals, to be honest.
2. I find the whole thing deeply hypocritical and I will tell you why. Once we are out of natural resources and realpolitik kicks in vegans will turn back to meat and war as quickly as the rest of the people. This is related to what I've said elsewhere about first world problems - for the millions of starving and unclothed in this world, the whole proposition of veganism is utterly ridiculous.

And what Lane said is right and Michale Pollan, no defender of feedlot meat (which should be banned), says the same thing. In a way domestic animals have domesticated us. They get to live longer than they would in the wild, with food readily available and in relative safety.

Having said that, I completely agree that the US (and some other countries) big food business has completely perverted our relationship with those animals and this must be changed. The feedlots are the things of evil for sure.

[michael_kard]

Fantastic piece, and yes, it was super slim cut and I was overweight at the time, was pretty upset I couldn't get it. This should go into the archives section for sure.

Thank you, I will add it in a bit.

[Dane]

^ I was just listening to that song!

I was raised vegetarian, but have since taken to eating whatever is put in front of me as an adult living on my own.

I am a full-on hypocrite...I cringe at those awful animal cruelty ads on tv...I can't even watch animals attacking each other in the wild...I find it all really upsetting. Frankly,war images of people dying don't upset me nearly as much as seeing animal cruelty.

Yet, I wear leather, am not really offended by others wearing fur, and this is why: the things I purchase are of farmed origins. Not much of an excuse, but I feel the same way about trees...I'm okay with buying wood from farmed trees, but not otherwise. Fact is, not everything is permanent in this world...oil, water, trees, animals...all are vulnerable and have the potential for extinction.

Now to lighten the mood...my reason for existence:

[zamb]

"It's Ok to eat fish, 'cause they don't have any feelings."

Let's add more fuel to the fire.

1. I don't like those vegans that feel morally superior. They are not that far from Christian evangelicals, to be honest.
2. I find the whole thing deeply hypocritical and I will tell you why. Once we are out of natural resources and realpolitik kicks in vegans will turn back to meat and war as quickly as the rest of the people. This is related to what I've said elsewhere about first world problems - for the millions of starving and unclothed in this world, the whole proposition of veganism is utterly ridiculous.

And what Lane said is right and Michale Pollan, no defender of feedlot meat (which should be banned), says the same thing. In a way domestic animals have domesticated us. They get to live longer than they would in the wild, with food readily available and in relative safety.

Having said that, I completely agree that the US (and some other countries) big food business has completely perverted our relationship with those animals and this must be changed. The feedlots are the things of evil for sure.

well,
I was gonna say that i feel a certain level of cultic worship coming through in some of the stances they take,actually I find it to be a new religion in a way, but I didn't wanna cause I don't want to perpetuate the belief of being SZ chief religious antagonist/ protagonist!

I have a friend who once told me that Animals have souls and as such should not be eaten..................in my philosophical reading I found out this go as far back as the pythagoreans who were strict vegetarians who held exactly the same idea.

I do believe though that a diet that is heavily plant based is better for ones body, as I personally believe such foods are easier to digest and better for cleaning ones system because they are richer in fibers, but to exclude meat completely from ones diet is really unnecessary.

And then the moral aspects of it is another thing. I think Gandhi was the chief proponent of this position, he said:
"Spiritual progress does demand at some stage that we should cease to kill our fellow creatures for the satisfaction of our bodily wants"

[Faust]

/\ The first quote was a Nirvana line.

As for the rest, I just want to make clear that I am not trying to dictate what values are hypocritical or not. This is my position. And as for the rest of your argument, I will state again - animals are not people. Take care of people first. And if taking care of people first requires animal product, I am all for it.

[zamb]

Rilu,

I must say that while I stand in an opposite camp from you on the subject I like your reasoning and the way your argument is structured. I would love to hear more from you on the subject. I am curious to know the underlying reasons for the positions hold by you (and other vegans)..............

Also, on the subject of sustainability, I am all for it, but do you not think there could be other ways of practicing sustainability that makes use of materials such as leathers, without necessarily becoming vegan?........
I too have a position on sustainability, but it is much different from the position held by most vegans/ sustainability proponents today........

My position is based on the Jewish idea of the keeping of Sabbaths and the concept of Jubilee..........where there are specific times alotted for the "rest" of the environment, both of the land and the animals. As such we could use what is needed and then give the earth time to replenish itself. one of the main reasons why I am against industrialization is that modern man has become exceedingly greedy, and all kind of immoral choices are made of the basis of profit. The effects of our actions towards the earth and our fellowmen are not considered when money is there to be made.

I think if we were more considerate in giving the earth and nature time to "heal" itself on a regular basis, in the same way we do our bodies, then we would have less problems of sustainability. The earth and animals does not need us to take care of them, but only to give it time to replenish itself. It is intersting that man has the greatest intellect in the known physical universe but he is the biggest destructive force to himself and his environment!

While we are indeed made in the image of the Divine one, physically we are from the earth, and the same principles of caring for ourselves as human beings must be applied to the earth in some way because we are all connected...............albeit man is grater than his environment and the animals around him

[Heirloom]

"It's Ok to eat fish, 'cause they don't have any feelings."

Let's add more fuel to the fire.

1. To answer casem, people (myself included) don't like those vegans that feel morally superior. They are not that far from Christian evangelicals, to be honest.
2. I find the whole thing deeply hypocritical and I will tell you why. Once we are out of natural resources and realpolitik kicks in vegans will turn back to meat and war as quickly as the rest of the people. This is related to what I've said elsewhere about first world problems - for the millions of starving and unclothed in this world, the whole proposition of veganism is utterly ridiculous.

And what Lane said is right and Michale Pollan, no defender of feedlot meat (which should be banned), says the same thing. In a way domestic animals have domesticated us. They get to live longer than they would in the wild, with food readily available and in relative safety.

Having said that, I completely agree that the US (and some other countries) big food business has completely perverted our relationship with those animals and this must be changed. The feedlots are the things of evil for sure.

couldn't have said it better myself.

[Dane]

^ question for Rilu (and by no means is this a suggestion...)

Does is not bother you being on a forum such as this that constantly discusses leather? Obviously you share a similar aesthetic with the other members, so that makes perfect sense, but do you just avoid those threads (Guidi, etc.)?

[several_girls]

1. To answer casem, people (myself included) don't like those vegans that feel morally superior. They are not that far from Christian evangelicals, to be honest.
2. I find the whole thing deeply hypocritical and I will tell you why. Once we are out of natural resources and realpolitik kicks in vegans will turn back to meat and war as quickly as the rest of the people. This is related to what I've said elsewhere about first world problems - for the millions of starving and unclothed in this world, the whole proposition of veganism is utterly ridiculous.

On the first point, aren't you just assuming they think of themselves as morally superior? The vegetarians/vegans I know don't think of themselves as such. And if you're going to choose a dogma, vegans at least have a scientific grounding for their choices; evangelicals only have rhetoric and the bible.

I don't follow your second point, Faust. We are allowed to eat meat because millions of people are starving? Or that the utter ridiculousness of living in a world where millions are starving makes any dietary choice no better than the next?

You know that much of the corn produced in the US is fed into the meat market. If everyone in the "first world" cut their meat intake by a significant amount, the amount of surplus corn, soy and wheat could be exported to feed those starving millions. It also take so much more land to produce meat than to produce other crops. Brazil clearcuts their rainforest to meet the demand for meat.

Realpolitik wouldn't kick in if natural resources weren't exhausted. They wouldn't be exhausted if people simply cut their meat intake. Being a meat-eater in the rest of the world means eating it once a week or less. Even then, the "meat" can be as small a portion as a neckbone in a soup.

I also take issue with your argument as a hypothetical situation. Anyone could similarly construct a hypothetical situation wherein you make choices that contradict your own ethics.

All this being said, I am not a vegetarian nor a vegan, but after studying the question and reviewing the social, political and environmental costs of eating meat (and other kinds of mass processed foods), I try to reduce my consumption. I also try to support more 'sustainable' meat choices. I would agree though that vegan/vegetarian identities can be something of a trap.

[Fenix]

Ok, I have a hard time with this whole debate. Vegans traditionally preach that they refuse to support animal cruelty and massacre. However, most are in some way supporting Monsanto in their vegan lifestyle. I'm not sure which is the greater evil.

I would imagine that it is just as easy if not easier to find a local farmer, who provides free range, organic meat, poultry or such than it is to find a soy producer that is not using genetically modified soybeans. I assume soy Is still a vital part of the vegan diet, no? Hell, maybe I'm wrong and they are all holding out till 2014 for the Monsanto patent to expire. We'll see how that plays out.

In the end, I am sure there are sustainable, environmentally friendly ways to live both a vegan and pro-meat lifestyles. However, most people are not willing to take the time to find the right producers and are not able or willing to spend the extra money.

[Dane]

Ok, I have a hard time with this whole debate. Vegans traditionally preach that they refuse to support animal cruelty and massacre. However, most are in some way supporting Monsanto in their vegan lifestyle. I'm not sure which is the greater evil.

I would imagine that it is just as easy if not easier to find a local farmer, who provides free range, organic meat, poultry or such than it is to find a soy producer that is not using genetically modified soybeans. I assume soy Is still a vital part of the vegan diet, no? Hell, maybe I'm wrong and they are all holding out till 2014 for the Monsanto patent to expire. We'll see how that plays out.

In the end, I am sure there are sustainable, environmentally friendly ways to live both a vegan and pro-meat lifestyles. However, most people are not willing to take the time to find the right producers and are not able or willing to spend the extra money.

Soy was never a vital part of my vegetarian lifestyle growing up. Local produce...lots of seasonal things like root vegetables, plus beans and things. Now that it's easy to find ready-made vegetarian fare at grocery stores, I imagine many rely on soy milk, but it's just as easy to buy almond or rice milk, or just not have a milk substitute in your diet.

For that matter, let's just say that many veggies/vegans don't require any "substitute". They don't need fake leathers, fake milk, fake meat products, petroleum-based oddities, etc. A creative and patient person can live a lifestyle without searching the world for replacements.

Rilu - fair enough and very sensible.