Your recent purchases

[Dane]

I once visited this thread to look at consumerism and shiny new things.

[zamb]

You can't apply moral standards and ethics in general to a being that doesn't (seem to, at least by all our scientific knowledge up to date) have a choice regarding what they eat, how they live, according to which principles etc. Most animals' behavior is determined by instincts, or at least in big part. In contrast, humans have an ability to make conscious, rational choices. That's exactly why the whole debate on determinism of free will is so incredibly problematic from an ethical point of view: for example, once you establish human will as non-free, i.e., as pre-determined, you have to say goodbye to any form of morality, since moral behavior is possible only if one is able to make a rational decision regarding their behavior. This is not to say that what is happening in nature in terms of survival and natural selection is not sad. It just means that while we can't expect from beings which don't have moral reasoning to behave morally, we can expect moral reasoning from humans. That is also why we can speak of animal rights, but not of animals' duties or obligations.


Indeed, this from above could be an example of the so-called naturalistic fallacy: Because a certain behaviour is natural, it is morally acceptable.

zamb, as Nikov pointed out, we don't have any scientific studies showing plants suffering or feeling pain (there were certain so-called studies done in the 20th century, but as far as I know, all have turned out to be a pseudo-science). Of course, this doesn't prove that they don't. But it makes it easier to understand why with beings where we do recognize pain and suffering, some people wish not to be a reason for that. You could also understand that by an argument saying that vegetarians wish to cause as less pain and suffering as possible, while at the same time having to eat something, and since we don't have any evidence for pain in plants, while we do have in the case of animals, they chose not to eat the latter. However, there are also so-called frutarians, who eat only fruits of plants (excluding the seeds, i guess), in order not to destroy any life form as such.

I will agree with you that there is indeed a certain sadness existing in animals having to kill each other in order to survive. An in a way I support a vegetarian diet in part because I believe it was the original diet for both man and animals.............the difference here is that I beleive this from a different belief system than many. I dont believe sickness, decay and death was a part of the original creation of the earth..........
Gotta take care of something. I will expand on this later,
..............and yes, I think this discussion deserves its own thread, and you all have waken me up now because these kinds of discussions are of central interest to me......

[endorphinz]

This debate is rife with logical fallacies

what's logic got to do w this?

[KM80]

some argue that humans make a conscience choice to eat animals and thereby cause them pain and suffering.
I ask these people if animals in the wild make this same choice when hunting their prey? Should they be vegans? How does this fit in with that whole natural selection thing?

For the record, my philosophy is live and let live meaning eat/don't eat, it's all personal choice. I just entered this discussion because I was genuinely curious as to how the above questions would be answered.

ps: in hindsight,maybe live/let live was a poor cliche to use here.

That's ridiculous, there is a huge difference between animals naturally hunting in the wild and the truly disgusting and horrifying things that go on in factory farms.

[endorphinz]

^yeah I guess on the surface it appears that way but tell that to the animal being ripped apart and then devoured, sometimes while still alive.

yeah, I know, we should know better. Like I said, nuthin bout this discussion is logical.






nuff. I'm done thanks, and good nite

[KM80]

Here's something harsher than a nature documentary you can watch.

http://www.earthlings.com/earthlings/video-full.php

[TheThief]

Here's my piece since zamb asked:

A. We are all rational beings endowed with the ability to make the choices we deem fit. If you want to eat meat, eat it. If you want to eat soy, go for it. When things get wonky is when people feel that their choice is clearly superior and try to force it down the throats of others. This is true on either side of most debates. Maybe it's my libretarian leanings but I feel this way about most rational decisions made by rational adults regarding their own lives and health. I may be opening up a can of worms here (and Faust will haul off and belt me if I am) but my standpoint is consistent across the board on this issue. Want to take drugs? Take them, you're not hurting me. Want to practice some wacky religion, do it. Just dont tell me that I have to as well.

B. To say that humans are the "highest and most valuable lifeforms existing on planet earth" is really a cop out. We just happen to be the mammals who ended up with more cognitive function. It could have gone the other way. One could make the argument that we are the lowest, since we're the ones tearing it apart.

C. Yes I eat meat but I am also uncomfortable with the big factories that raise animals in cages and pump them full of hormones for fat americans to gobble up stacked in patty form, with some layers of processed cheese, a side of sugar and salt and all wrapped nicely in a bunch of paper. It's a mess. I try to eat the meat that comes from free range animals. At least they have lived a decent life before they end up on my plate. On the other side of this coin, I'm also bothered by the companies like Monsanto who are creating GMO's, letting their soy beans blow with the wind onto the small farms and then putting them out of business. It's not just the meat factories that are run by corporate greed and nasty business tactics. So dont shove your soy-burger in my face, tell me your path is the righteous one and that I'm supporting the evil empire - you are too.

D. Everyone needs meat, even the vegans. At the end of the day those carnitine pills you eat are derived from the blood squeezed from good ol' red meat. It's just a fact of life.

My final thought, maybe this guy had the right idea. Besides, he only ate "the Free-Range Rude". Perhaps if we were eating each other people would at least be more polite to one another.

[endorphinz]

(for either of the sides)

see that's my point. for me, there aren't any sides. it's all about individuals making choices that are right for themselves while not infringing upon others. I think we're all on that side.

whatever gets you thru the nite is alright... is alright

btw: the bag looks nice

[pseudonym]

Agreed. It's always been a crap shoot buying shoes online for me but with guidi, it's the toughest one to get a comfortable fit in. If you find the perfect sizing in backzips, it's going to be different with lace-ups or oxfords. And then you have to anticipate a bit of breaking in and stretching. I guess this qualifies as a first-world problem but doesn't matter how much I'm in love with a shoe/boot...if it doesn't fit properly, it's going to sit in my closet.

I imagine that retailers not stocking half sizes is about maximizing their buy. Given that brands like VA and Julius can get away with 1-4 sizing, I guess half sizes are too specific but sometimes it's the only way to find a pair that will really fit.

Embarrassing part, both the 42 and the 43 in black derbies I bought at a store and tried them on before purchase..

43, not expecting to stretch out that much, 'nough said.
42, expecting to stretch like the 43 from the previous season, and of course they stayed pretty close to original shape (and killed my toes).

Well, I guess its all about the hunt anyways right. I'm sure I'll never wear these now that I finally found a pair that fits, even though a simple black derby has been all I wanted for the past year.

[eleven crows]

itt: reasons not to buy guidi shoes.

is there a chart set up to navigate the various differences among labels for shoe sizes? cause some of us don't have access to the luxurious stores oft talked about and take some hope powered stabs in the dark.

[eleven crows]

stores can't, and don't, always help when contacted. not to mention the private selling done via classifieds, sufu, ebay, etc. then you must take into consideration that as the sizes vary among labels, seasons and geographical locations, errors can still be made quite easily.

[beardown]

stores can't, and don't, always help when contacted. not to mention the private selling done via classifieds, sufu, ebay, etc. then you must take into consideration that as the sizes vary among labels, seasons and geographical locations, errors can still be made quite easily.

I hardly ever LOL but I will make an exception for this. Not at you, probably with you. If an online store won't work with you DO NOT PURCHASE FROM THEM. They don't deserve your business. Simple as that. Same with classified sellers.

If you think guidis are hard to fit (and they are, generally speaking) try matching up to a one-size-fits all 1-4 in Julius boots. Or navigating the extra length on a CCP boot or derby. Truth is, nobody should really buy expensive shoes online where you can't try them on but most of us do anyway because it's our only option.

And most of us have bought, sold, resold just to find the right fit where we can't try them on. Measurements only give you so much information and usually don't reflect he insole. In short, it's part of the game, highly frustrating at times and maddening. I've settled for wearing boots that were too long, too narrow or too wide in my quest, as I'm sure others have.

The quest continues...but the good news is when you find the perfect fit, if you take care of them, they'll probably last a lifetime. And with something like guidi or CCP, they are timeless designs...they are a true investment that will always pay out a decent return.

So there is a method to the madness and ultimately a reward for our toil and tribulations. I got to the point where I have a pretty good sense of humor about it all but god knows I've wasted considerable funds along the way.

With this most recent purchase, it kind of felt like it was all justified. And that's a pretty good feeling. Let the quest commence on the next grail...a process I'm sure that will never end. I can live with that. As pseudo put it, sometimes it's about the thrill of the hunt.

[Oasis]

Ahh, the familiar anxiety of ordering footwear online and the waiting to see if you've blown $1000 on something that will break your foot.

[eleven crows]

we've left the path of my original topic somewhat, but i know what you mean.

personally, i don't like guidi footwear and haven't had to deal with the sizing issues. i only know them through proxy. i've done my time and burned my notes on mismatched footwear of the ccp variety. currently sitting at a fifty percent strike rate.

generally it's a gamble for the online consumer and the house almost always wins. give or take half a size.

i was thinking it may be useful to produce a little chart or something to give comparative sizing for different brands. i know i'm generally a ccp 9 now: this was an expensive question to answer. if there'd been something to reference for general sizes it might not have cost me the pound of flesh.

as simple as:

ccp 9 = 45 guidi = 44 ma+ = 43 cdiem

and so on.

[Oasis]

we've left the path of my original topic somewhat, but i know what you mean.

personally, i don't like guidi footwear and haven't had to deal with the sizing issues. i only know them through proxy. i've done my time and burned my notes on mismatched footwear of the ccp variety. currently sitting at a fifty percent strike rate.

generally it's a gamble for the online consumer and the house almost always wins. give or take half a size.

i was thinking it may be useful to produce a little chart or something to give comparative sizing for different brands. i know i'm generally a ccp 9 now: this was an expensive question to answer. if there'd been something to reference for general sizes it might not have cost me the pound of flesh.

as simple as:

ccp 9 = 45 guidi = 44 ma+ = 43 cdiem

and so on.

They have something similar on SF for sneakers but with the disparity in sizing on some of the more discussed brands here (CCP in particular) between even two pairs of the same shoe in the same size it seems, would such a chart even be worth the bother?