The pricing is crazy/justified thread

[fenrost]

This sounds like circular reasoning and is precisely what is being called into question. Whether it is M.A+/LUC and their fabric choices, RO/ANN/YY/DD and their sensual universe, or CCP and his experimental design, do the pricepoints accurately reflect the creative process at work or is the premium solely indicative of an aura that attracts a wealthy/elitest consumer base? Is it a coincidence that a significant percentage of their clientele work in the fine arts field?

i can't really compare them, totally different area of creative process the way i see them in "fashion".

if you take poell or luc's research.. in construction, materials, time.. and then labor of works, which mostly in-house.. all into considerations, it could well be.

there is no deny that people are drawn to ccp because of it's pricing and exclusivity, but i feel they are just in small percentage, as so far, people i have met who follow ccp (who comes from various disciplines), the last thing we would want to talk about is the pricing.

[endersgame]

sorry, i'm derailing here..

[zamb]

Think there is a certain naivety here.

Lets take the 3,000 euro shoe. Now, at some point ma+ sat down and fixed a price for this. Now what drove the decision to put 3,000 euro on it. I'd like to examine that.

Well I dont think MA+ sat down and put that price on it. that's the price of the retail, the wholesale price coming from MA+ might even be less than half of that............ but that's a whole other story.

in some ways I've tried to not get too involved in this discussion, partly because I am a designer and understand the wide range of considerations that goes into pricing these items.
its not always cut and dry, and some things are indeed ridiculously overpriced, but on the other hand some stuff is under priced, and has to be so for customer considerations, so in a weird kind of way it balances out.

My personal opinion is that you buy what you want for whatever you can afford/ its selling for and it's nobodies business. I know what to consider when pricing items, and know how much to sell them for, some other designer might have a different set of considerations to make, and so can charge whatever they want.
Buy it if you like it and can afford it..............leave it alone if you can't.

[pierce]

I suppose you could compare a print of an artwork to an ma+ shoe.
The original idea becomes mass producable once it gets handed over to the printer or person stitching the shoe. Then the only thing that should decide the value is the cost of the materials and the wages of the person doing the stitching.

[Fuuma]

I suppose you could compare a print of an artwork to an ma+ shoe.
The original idea becomes mass producable once it gets handed over to the printer or person stitching the shoe. Then the only thing that should decide the value is the cost of the materials and the wages of the person doing the stitching.

Show me the original piece on which MA+ shoes are based and which give each shoe their value. Wait, there is none and your comparison doesn't make sense. Why would he bother designing them, he couldn't even live from it.

What you're asking for is the death of design in all its forms. Only art and mass produced merchandise at Walmart.

[interest1]

Also I think alot of people on this forum use price as a way of judging an item, if its expensive then its got to be the best.

One for the road:

pierce, I think you are correct to assign that assumption to those who are more newly exposed to the world of expensive apparel, be that to mega-brands that are household names or niche labels that most people can't pronounce. When one hasn't refined their look to absolute ownership of it, yes–there's likely to be a period when they go for what is expensive because they assume that's the best litmus test for defining what's "good". It's called not knowing any better.

But after a while, most people who have a genuine interest in these things graduate from that stage once they've found their voice. It's here that most people tend to STOP looking to price to inform their decisions and instead (hopefully) start going by what works for their body/personality/lifestyle...Those who haven't figured it out are the ones most likely to be Photoshopped a new head in WAYWT, which is the mildest "fail" this forum can issue.

If anything, we get de-sensitized to high prices because we've established a pattern of paying them, so $800 for pants starts feeling as normal as $2500 for a leather jacket (and that's considered a 'cheapie' nowadays ).

It's not so different than other arenas where people are spending mad money to own something 'special' for often no greater reason of importance than simply really wanting to fucking have it. Like cars, for some. Or electronics, if that's your thing. Watches. Desk chairs sexier than their girlfriend...and on it goes. Things that make people feel a certain way. But no, not like art. That's three more paragraphs I really don't want to write.

Simply put, when you haven't cultivated the capacity to appreciate what others on the same forum would devote a month's salary to without blinking, it's going to be impossible for you to genuinely understand the appeal. Let alone get your 'tannery' all worked up over it..


enders– merz has you covered. See Randomness thread, last night.

[AZH]

pierce, I understand what you say. Personally, I do not think CCP's suit is worth the charged price, and I have been here for two years, so far I cant recall anybody who wears CCP suit extremely well in the wywt thread too.

I like CCP's leather goods though, especially the footwears. I have a pair of CCP boots from 07FW. I love them. The leather is just unbelievably thick, and they soften down as they got more worn.

I want to say one of the reasons why people want to buy CCP and MA+ even though they are charging very high prices, is that there is a big second hand market behind them. And the second hand price is still very high. Like me, I paid around $1800USD for the CCP boots 2 years ago, I wear them almost everyday. I believe they would get sold for at least $1200USD now if I put them on the market. At least that was one of the reasons convinced me to buy a pair of boots with such a high price.

This situation reminds me of that in women's world, they like to buy LV hand bags. If you ask them why you spend tons of money on LV hand bags, they would say because everyone has one, and when you are tired of the bag, you can sell it to recover most of the money you spent on it. Then you move on to buy a new LV hand bag.

[zamb]

I suppose you could compare a print of an artwork to an ma+ shoe.
The original idea becomes mass producable once it gets handed over to the printer or person stitching the shoe. Then the only thing that should decide the value is the cost of the materials and the wages of the person doing the stitching.

Man I have been reading your posts and this is just serious lack of knowledge here..............
are you saying then that the designer shouldn't add a profit margin to the cost of the product?
outside of materials what about
studio space,
rental,
machinery,
cost of presentation for the work,
shipping,
administrative costs of running a business?
etc, etc, etc?

[nictan]

at the end of the day, its business. m.a or any of the other designers in discussion could produce $20 x 1000 pairs of shoes, or 10 pairs of $2000 shoes. having catered to a niche crowd right from the beginning with high quality leather or hand-stitch etc reasonings, they'll just keep on producing stuff like that, which we like, and try hard (at least for me) to afford. and its human nature to want to receive more for your work (increasing prices). at least thats what i'd want. until a limit is reached. probably at 10k per shoe

[whitney]

Buy it if you like it and can afford it..............leave it alone if you can't.

pretty much. if people buy, then the price stays or increase even. if no one does, then the brand will have to adjust

and i realize that the price for items are done so theres wholesale..then a markup from that from the retailer that is selling it..etc etc.. but i *secretly would like to think* that retailers know most people will not buy it at full price, but will be lured in by the word 'sale' and while some may pay retail, most will wait and pounce on it when it gets marked down. of course ideally, businesses would love for people to pay retail always

[Fuuma]

at the end of the day, its business. m.a or any of the other designers in discussion could produce $20 x 1000 pairs of shoes, or 10 pairs of $2000 shoes. having catered to a niche crowd right from the beginning with high quality leather or hand-stitch etc reasonings, they'll just keep on producing stuff like that, which we like, and try hard (at least for me) to afford. and its human nature to want to receive more for your work (increasing prices). at least thats what i'd want. until a limit is reached. probably at 10k per shoe

Let's not discount personal choices and designer's vision. The 2K shoe might just be what they envisioned, even though it might be less economically feasible. Niche designers aren't bankrolled by mutual funds with an army of accountants at their beck and call, their business choice are as much gut-feelings and doing what they feel like doing as anything else.

[Tyro]

The monetary value for anything is basically determined by what people are prepared to pay for it. Like Zam says if people can afford it and they want it, they will buy it.

and an aside: the value of art as art

[zamb]

pretty much. if people buy, then the price stays or increase even. if no one does, then the brand will have to adjust

and i realize that the price for items are done so theres wholesale..then a markup from that from the retailer that is selling it..etc etc.. but i *secretly would like to think* that retailers know most people will not buy it at full price, but will be lured in by the word 'sale' and while some may pay retail, most will wait and pounce on it when it gets marked down.

there are also a lot of good points being brought up on the cost to run the business, as to why the prices are set at x, and why it increases as cost of living and in general..increases

this might be the case with some stores that carry larger brands that produce more, but with smaller niche brands and boutique type stores, its not always the case, as they might only buy one or two items in each size, and would rather sell it at full price to free up cash that would allow them to focus on other expenses.
Trust me, no store wants to wait until the sale season to sell the bulk of their goods........

[fenrost]

as zamb said, alot of factors for the price, shipping and then retailers.

also would like to add that never associate high price = designer living a luxury life... no one knows the mysterious poell, but friends of luca have said he lives a very humble life, despite allegation of the exuberant pricing.

the way they charged the market, like faust said, is what the market can bear... now maybe it gets thinner.

just stand back and admire.. :)

[pierce]

Man I have been reading your posts and this is just serious lack of knowledge here..............
are you saying then that the designer shouldn't add a profit margin to the cost of the product?
outside of materials what about
studio space,
rental,
machinery,
cost of presentation for the work,
shipping,
administrative costs of running a business?
etc, etc, etc?

No, I'm not saying that zamb at all. Of course every business has overheads that need to be covered. What I'm examining is the point where by an item is priced.

Firstly, I respect your opinion, because anyone that takes nothing and makes something, understands the point where the something then needs be priced and the conflict that that brings.
With art, where by you have worked on it yourself and it is totally unique and more than one person wants it, the price is not fixed by you.

But for something that is faximilaied, you the maker need to fix the price. You add up production costs ( material, wages, overheads) and you wind up with a number. Here comes the hard part. What value do I put on my own work. What drives this decision?
Is it marketing? Is it brand? Is it the need to accumulate personal wealth? If it is personal wealth, then why do you need to accumulate it?

For a true designer, the creation of the object ( be it seeing your shoe finally made ) is all that should matter. If other things start to come into play then you run the risk of loosing your creativity.
Thats why I have a problem with putting a 3000 price tag on a pair of shoes. It shows the values the designer holds.