random fashion thoughts

[MJRH]

A facile argument, given how little is known about who did what way back when.

The real vitriol ought to be over the outright theft of CCP's boots.

Note that, by bringing this up, I am beating what is often literally dead horse

[MJRH]

Hm, I was unclear.

I thought he worked on the continues line, which means any comparison between his line and cdiem is kinda irrelevant/inevitable? If there's more, fill me in.

[Faust]

Fair point and thanks!

I'm working on co-optation in the field of electronic music at the moment and I see what i'd say is a multi-staged co-optation process, for lack of a better term, that played over and over and over again since the 80s. I think this shows that co-optation is a simplified process and a thorough examination shows that central field members were first responsible for the commercialization of certain elements of a stigmatized and/or niche community, as you pointed out with rick and helmut. so i'd say that this fits the model, rather than being an anomaly, albeit not how we usually talk about co-optation, and not something i knew/had foreseen when i made my comment. nevertheless, i'd still argue that they did both helped in "breaking" the look/codes.

was it really the "times where they were culturally relevant", though? I'm having problems with this line of reasoning, and it is one that is often used to explain why something caught on. I think there are more complex dynamics at play. For example, i'd argue that les deux cafes for rick was probably more central to the diffusion of his designs than the "right times" fo rthe use of homosexual imagery. that might be a topic for another day.

I think you'd have to define co-optation here. If a member of a niche subculture becomes successful and famous, has he automatically co-opted the said culture? I see co-optation as necessarily done by agents outside of a subculture, those who are not culturally invested. They steal the visual trappings while leaving the cultural underpinnings by the wayside.

I won't speak for 1994, but I am guessing he (she?) is talking about a time when, for example, being gay was still subversive. No longer so. Today almost all the gay men I know are the most conservatively dressed and behaved people. Even Rick himself has said that being gay is no longer rebellious. I had this conversation here:

http://www.sz-mag.com/news/2013/05/in-conversation-with-filep-motwary-part-i/

"
FM: There are no real surprises, things to keep you excited.
I was recently talking with Rick Owens and he mentioned how, for example, being gay has become such normality, how gay people suffered during the 70′s or 80′s, excluded in their own bars thus now they can get married, have a happy life with their companion, adopt. Finally! Yet, I would say, there was a romantic aspect about this struggle of identity back then which does not really exist today.
ER: Yes. But isn’t it the case with all struggles? You fight for what exactly? For acceptance, your rights. And once you get those rights, life becomes rather placid – vacations, shopping, dinners."

[Faust]

Wasn't sure where to post it (btw SZ got a shout-out):
"If Mad Max started a luxury fashion label, it would look like the work of these designers" - http://qz.com/402478/if-mad-max-star...ese-designers/

And so does my article for Business of Fashion about forums
Obviously the author, whoever he is, is an avid follower. But how the fuck does Styleforum gets mentioned along StyleZeitgeist with the following is beyond me.

"The growth in the market is noticeable online too, in the discussion threads on prominent menswear forums, such as Styleforum and StyleZeitgeist, which revolves almost exclusively around these designers."

And Leopold Bossert, the knock-off artist gets a nod? Maybe not such an avid follower after all...

[Faust]

Ahem. Olivier Rousteing let the world know that Balmain is the next high fashion label to collaborate with H&M.

Jesus Christ

[zamb]

Jesus Christ

i have said it before and i have said it again..........the battle for Fashion relevance and by extension, fashion dollars is being won by two groups of people. the H&M, Topshop and Zara's of the World and the High Fashion brands/ groups with deep pockets

I am more and more inclined to believe that unless you are in one of those camps you are fighting a losing battle.

A very good example of this an be seen in the amount of closing of niche stores/ brands over the last several years coupled with the stores who traditionally supported artisanal brands opening up their selling floors and budgets to the balmain's and YSL's or the world.

I also think many niche brands have not helped their cause with a seemingly stagnant approach to designing over the last 4-5 seasons.

I think fall 2015 was rather refreshing, but I still find the whole trend and direction a bot worrisome for smaller niche brands

[Faust]

I think that Balmain x H&M makes for a strange case. In essense, Balmain, like SLP, produces very expensive (read, very overpriced) version of casual wear. $1500 jeans, $1000 sweatpants, $500 tshirts. These are typically bought by basketball players, hip-hop stars, and their imitators (and me, on one occasion ). To water this down and potentially alienate their niche audience seems like a commercially bad move, because the imitations won't be that far from the originals.

[Shucks]

I think that Balmain x H&M makes for a strange case. In essense, Balmain, like SLP, produces very expensive (read, very overpriced) version of casual wear. $1500 jeans, $1000 sweatpants, $500 tshirts. These are typically bought by basketball players, hip-hop stars, and their imitators (and me, on one occasion ). To water this down and potentially alienate their niche audience seems like a commercially bad move, because the imitations won't be that far from the originals.

1. there is most likely a significant amount of money involved which helps alleviate part of that pain for balmain....

2. there could be a perfume launch or similar just around the corner, and the increased brand recognition from something like this will definitely help push products.

3. every ostentatious 'bling'-type baller customer wants there to be an aspirational crowd of admirers wishing they were in his/her place.

just some quick thoughts...

[zamb]

1. there is most likely a significant amount of money involved which helps alleviate part of that pain for balmain....

2. there could be a perfume launch or similar just around the corner, and the increased brand recognition from something like this will definitely help push products.

3. every ostentatious 'bling'-type baller customer wants there to be an aspirational crowd of admirers wishing they were in his/her place.

just some quick thoughts...

Quick thoughts but ones that make perfect sense given the current climate and very $$$Sensible rationale for doing this.

I think that Balmain x H&M makes for a strange case. In essense, Balmain, like SLP, produces very expensive (read, very overpriced) version of casual wear. $1500 jeans, $1000 sweatpants, $500 tshirts. These are typically bought by basketball players, hip-hop stars, and their imitators (and me, on one occasion ). To water this down and potentially alienate their niche audience seems like a commercially bad move, because the imitations won't be that far from the originals.

They will not alienate their niche, especially with said celebrities and their stylists shopping at H&M and pairing its products with high end brands making the high low pairing a trend in itself.
If they are bought by the customers you listed above, then it makes for a ready audience that will be lining up to purchase these items and ultimately creating the kind of scenario Shucks mentioned in point 3.

[zamb]

While i think book has been around for several years, I think a lot of the points she raised in it are still relevant.

I think it would serve well for a lot of us designers and Ardent fans of this industry to read this book.......http://www.amazon.com/The-End-Fashio.../dp/0060958200

[PurpleJesuss]

All this to me is a direct reflection of rousteing's flagrant associations with pop culture and their stars. It is probably an incredibly lucrative venture since obviously most people will be able to afford the clothes and brag i'm wearing balmain like kim k". Really shows how much a prestigious house is willing to sacrifice for some extra dollars. Sad sad times...


As for the Quartz article, while the author provides a good overview of "artisanal" brands, i felt like he lumped them all into "heavily distressed shit with an overlock stitch that will make you feel like a badass". I think that's a pretty narrow minded view of what something like ma+ has to offer...

[zamb]

Well the reality of the world than we live in now is that the old distinctions of class/ race/ money have gone completely through the window............I don't know if its a good thing or a bad thing, but i know its the present stare of the world

When we live in a society where the woman you named that I shall not, is one of the biggest most famous person on the planet, raking in millions of dollars for doing absolutely nothing then what else can we expect?

Personally, I like people who have contributed something to society, people who have done something meaningful or have something noteworthy to say.........I loathe manufactured superstars, I loathe talentless celebrities and I despise the whole system of things that has made this possible.

Maybe we have come to a point where even with big fashion brands its all about survival of the fittest, and that survival might mean mating and whoring with partners whom you otherwise wouldn't....

[Nickefuge]

When we live in a society where the woman you named that I shall not, is one of the biggest most famous person on the planet, raking in millions of dollars for doing absolutely nothing then what else can we expect?

Personally, I like people who have contributed something to society, people who have done something meaningful or have something noteworthy to say.........I loathe manufactured superstars, I loathe talentless celebrities and I despise the whole system of things that has made this possible.

I think it´s too easy to see it like that, to talk down from an intellectual and moral point of view many people don´t or can´t possess. Even the dumbest celebrity may inspire someone who´s from a lower class or of lower intellect to try and achieve something in his or her life or at least distracts him or her from a life or situation that´s unpleasant and therefore stars are important in a way.
One could also read a book, yes, but idk if it´s a good idea to start discussing the school system ...

[Faust]

As for the Quartz article, while the author provides a good overview of "artisanal" brands, i felt like he lumped them all into "heavily distressed shit with an overlock stitch that will make you feel like a badass". I think that's a pretty narrow minded view of what something like ma+ has to offer...

A good article on this world requires a lot of effort and homework. I doubt we'll see one from an outsider any time soon.

[zamb]

I think it´s too easy to see it like that, to talk down from an intellectual and moral point of view many people don´t or can´t possess. Even the dumbest celebrity may inspire someone who´s from a lower class or lower intellect to try and achieve something in his or her life or at least distracts him or her from a life or situation that´s unpleasant and therefore stars are important in a way.
One could also read a book, yes, but idk if it´s a good idea to start discussing the school system ...

i do not at all consider myself an intellectual.....i think that requires a certain level of sagacity that my life and work has not allowed me to invest in or accomplish. that being said, I would like to think i am astutely observant of the world we live in, albeit from a specific philosophical foundation.

I am though, a student of fashion, and one that looks at its history and trends to see where the industry is heading. While i do believe people can inspire us and all of us have experienced that, i don't see anything inspirational in becoming famous by making a sex tape or serial relationships or nude pictures magazines or the endless amount of banal things that have become "achievements" in today's celebrity driven culture.........and this brings me to why I only watch sports on TV (not even news anymore) and i am increasingly selective as to where my news come from.

All in all, I think there is a serious decline in cultural excellence, and as it related to fashion you can see this in the poor quality of garments being made now and sold for thousands of dollars ..........
the sad thing about the H&M Collabs is that sometimes the quality of the big house garments are not as wide as the prices when compared