Atelier Article and Interview with K.S. in Haaretz (Israel)

[Faust]

Re: Atelier Article and Interview with K.S. in Haaretz (Israel)

[quote user="laika"]

[quote user="Faust"]hmm, not sure how else to describe it, laika. all those details are a part of something whole, and that whole is very different from a conventional suit, and it does feel very modern to me. it's very different from TBs shrinking of a conventional suit. the context is different too - i don't see carol being fascinated with a time period or a particular milieu, whereas TBs 50's Americana is more than obvious.
[/quote]

No, I see what you are saying. I was just teasing you for circumventing my query so cleverly. [66]

I'm
not entirely sure how to answer my own question, but it's something
i've been thinking about for my work. It seems like CCP is working
from the inside to change the suit, by using unusual construction
techniques, among other things. Also, he is very interested in
fit--the narrow and high armholes that Karlo mentioned, and also the
jointed pieces that he is working on. Whereas Thom Browne, also
interested in fit, is changing the way a suit is worn by altering
proportions--shrinking the size, raising the rise of the trousers,
etc. I definitely think that when it comes to suits, convention has a
lot to do with how the garments fit the body, and in that sense, Thom
Browne is unconventional. Maybe it's more about style than about
construction, but it's still significant, even if not exactly
innovative.

CCP is more subtle for sure, but subtlety is ultimately an aesthetic preference. It is possible to be unconventional in a non-subtle way.

[/quote]

[86]. Hmmm, I would say that CCP is changing it both from the outside and inside. Construction affects both - only some of it is hidden. The fact that he himself does not give it context is cool - the context is up to you. (This is probably why it feels in place in stores as vastly different as Atelier and The Library.) Whereas with TB, the context is given - you either subscribe to it or you don't (Fuuma doesn't, for example, he just wants a great suit). I can think of only two other innovators when it comes to suits, Raf Simons and Helmut Lang - and both of them provided context, Raf much more so than HL.

[Faust]

Re: Atelier Article and Interview with K.S. in Haaretz (Israel)

[quote user="Fuuma"]

[quote user="Faust"]/\ [86] edit: that was at Fuuma's post.
[/quote]

I truly respect his approach to the whole process of making and finishing them, but god someone should help him with styling! Try to imagine someone wearing the whole look with pointy boots and white shirt with those sleeves and walking down the street, outside of a connoisseur context what you get is some Serbian nightclub owner who decided to tone down the stripped shirts.

[/quote]

[86] Remember those Seal photos? Just awful. He looked like he was pimping Heidi Klum.

[laika]

Re: Atelier Article and Interview with K.S. in Haaretz (Israel)

[quote user="Faust"]

Hmmm, I would say that CCP is changing it both from the outside and inside. Construction affects both - only some of it is hidden. The fact that he himself does not give it context is cool - the context is up to you. (This is probably why it feels in place in stores as vastly different as Atelier and The Library.) Whereas with TB, the context is given - you either subscribe to it or you don't (Fuuma doesn't, for example, he just wants a great suit). I can think of only two other innovators when it comes to suits, Raf Simons and Helmut Lang - and both of them provided context, Raf much more so than HL.

[/quote]

Yes, that's what I was saying. What you are calling " the outside," is what I am calling "fit." They are both changing the fit of the suit, albeit with different methods.

The point about context is interesting, although I'm unsure how not providing historical context is unconventional per se....the real context here is the suit, no?

[Pinoy]

Re: Atelier Article and Interview with K.S. in Haaretz (Israel)



It's very interesting what this discussion has blossomed to-- and somehow, I don't think one could find the same amount of intellectual curiosity on any other fashion-related forum. In any case, my two cents on the whole TB & CCP discourse..

I sincerely feel like both TB and CCP have tried to reinvent the suit and have, to some degree, succeeded. By arguing that all TB has done to a suit is play with the proportions? shortening the jacket length and pant length considerably, etc, wouldn't that be essentially like arguing all Hedi Slimane did to revolutionize the menswear industry was to make everything super slim and narrow? And we all know how significant DH's impact on the fashion world has been..

I agree with Laika in that CCP really is working from the inside to change a suit, whereas TB is working from the outside. One is not more unconventional than the other? its just a matter of perspective.

[Faust]

Re: Atelier Article and Interview with K.S. in Haaretz (Israel)

[quote user="laika"][quote user="Faust"]

Hmmm, I would say that CCP is changing it both from the outside and inside. Construction affects both - only some of it is hidden. The fact that he himself does not give it context is cool - the context is up to you. (This is probably why it feels in place in stores as vastly different as Atelier and The Library.) Whereas with TB, the context is given - you either subscribe to it or you don't (Fuuma doesn't, for example, he just wants a great suit). I can think of only two other innovators when it comes to suits, Raf Simons and Helmut Lang - and both of them provided context, Raf much more so than HL.

[/quote]

Yes, that's what I was saying. What you are calling " the outside," is what I am calling "fit." They are both changing the fit of the suit, albeit with different methods.

The point about context is interesting, although I'm unsure how not providing historical context is unconventional per se....the real context here is the suit, no?

[/quote]

Mmmm, I am not sure. Garment as context. I guess it can be (a uniform), but not sure if a suit is particular enough to be context in itself. The same suit can be worn in different environments. Or do you mean in this particular quote, where we are talking about the role of a suit?

[Faust]

Re: Atelier Article and Interview with K.S. in Haaretz (Israel)

[quote user="danieldy"]

It's very interesting what this discussion has blossomed to-- and somehow, I don't think one could find the same amount of intellectual curiosity on any other fashion-related forum. In any case, my two cents on the whole TB & CCP discourse..

I sincerely feel like both TB and CCP have tried to reinvent the suit and have, to some degree, succeeded. By arguing that all TB has done to a suit is play with the proportions? shortening the jacket length and pant length considerably, etc, wouldn't that be essentially like arguing all Hedi Slimane did to revolutionize the menswear industry was to make everything super slim and narrow? And we all know how significant DH's impact on the fashion world has been..

I agree with Laika in that CCP really is working from the inside to change a suit, whereas TB is working from the outside. One is not more unconventional than the other? its just a matter of perspective.

[/quote]

Well, yea, pretty much. [86] What else has he done that is known outside of the tiny population of those who really know his work?

[BECOMING-INTENSE]

Re: Atelier Article and Interview with K.S. in Haaretz (Israel)

[quote user="laika"][quote user="Faust"]

Hmmm, I would say that CCP is changing it both from the outside and inside. Construction affects both - only some of it is hidden. The fact that he himself does not give it context is cool - the context is up to you. (This is probably why it feels in place in stores as vastly different as Atelier and The Library.) Whereas with TB, the context is given - you either subscribe to it or you don't (Fuuma doesn't, for example, he just wants a great suit). I can think of only two other innovators when it comes to suits, Raf Simons and Helmut Lang - and both of them provided context, Raf much more so than HL.

[/quote]

Yes, that's what I was saying. What you are calling " the outside," is what I am calling "fit." They are both changing the fit of the suit, albeit with different methods.

The point about context is interesting, although I'm unsure how not providing historical context is unconventional per se....the real context here is the suit, no?

[/quote]

You might argue that CCP is not just concerned with "fit", he is actually adding "new" elements/parts to the
"conventional suit", which changes it entirely, while Thom Browne is only concerned with "fit" ...

[laika]

Re: Atelier Article and Interview with K.S. in Haaretz (Israel)

[quote user="Faust"]

Mmmm, I am not sure. Garment as context. I guess it can be (a uniform), but not sure if a suit is particular enough to be context in itself. The same suit can be worn in different environments. Or do you mean in this particular quote, where we are talking about the role of a suit?

[/quote]

Not a suit. THE suit, as a historical object, which has occupied many environments and roles since it's invention. I just mean that regardless of the particular contexts thom or raf or ccp may (or may not) reference, the suit is their common ground. [75]

[laika]

Re: Atelier Article and Interview with K.S. in Haaretz (Israel)

[quote user="BECOMING-INTENSE"][quote user="laika"][quote user="Faust"]

Hmmm, I would say that CCP is changing it both from the outside and inside. Construction affects both - only some of it is hidden. The fact that he himself does not give it context is cool - the context is up to you. (This is probably why it feels in place in stores as vastly different as Atelier and The Library.) Whereas with TB, the context is given - you either subscribe to it or you don't (Fuuma doesn't, for example, he just wants a great suit). I can think of only two other innovators when it comes to suits, Raf Simons and Helmut Lang - and both of them provided context, Raf much more so than HL.

[/quote]

Yes, that's what I was saying. What you are calling " the outside," is what I am calling "fit." They are both changing the fit of the suit, albeit with different methods.

The point about context is interesting, although I'm unsure how not providing historical context is unconventional per se....the real context here is the suit, no?

[/quote]

You might argue that CCP is not just concerned with "fit", he is actually adding "new" elements/parts to the
"conventional suit", which changes it entirely, while Thom Browne is only concerned with "fit" ...

[/quote]

Yes, that could certainly be argued, especially with regards to the jointed garments.

But what do you mean by "only fit?" Fit is especially important, no? I think it's more important than making a suit jacket reversible, for example.

[Johnny]

Re: Atelier Article and Interview with K.S. in Haaretz (Israel)

actually i kind of agree with what B-I says, in relation to the taped seaming and exposed and taped construction. the thing about that is that it actually has no innovative functional purpose. the appeal of it to me is an aesthetic one. i actually think that it is probably deliberately useless. someone can correct me here, but I thought that one of the benefits of a bespoke suit (or expensive well made OTR) is that stitched unfused interlining - a benefit because it allows a more organic movement of the garment with the body. CCP does all of the stitched linings and then tapes them down, thus eliminating the principal (conventional) reason for doing it in the first place.

[Faust]

Re: Atelier Article and Interview with K.S. in Haaretz (Israel)

I think I just heard a collective gasp from Label Under Construction folks. [:O] I think reversibility is no little technical feat to achieve, and only best of the best can do it well (Junya Watanabe, Altieri, LUC, Poell).

[laika]

Re: Atelier Article and Interview with K.S. in Haaretz (Israel)



[quote user="Faust"]I think I just heard a collective gasp from Label Under Construction folks. [:O] I think reversibility is no little technical feat to achieve, and only best of the best can do it well (Junya Watanabe, Altieri, LUC, Poell).
[/quote]

[74]

I'm not saying it's not a technical feat. It is certainly an impressive accomplishment. But I don't think accomplishing a technical feat is the same thing as revolutionizing a garment (especially when that feat, impressive though it may be, is not adding or expanding the garment's function--i.e, it's a rather esoteric addition....)

[Faust]

Re: Atelier Article and Interview with K.S. in Haaretz (Israel)

/\ totally expands! two jackets for the price of one! [73]

[laika]

Re: Atelier Article and Interview with K.S. in Haaretz (Israel)

lol, i had no idea that was such a priority here on SZ.

[laika]

Re: Atelier Article and Interview with K.S. in Haaretz (Israel)



[quote user="Johnny"]actually i kind of agree with what B-I says, in relation to the taped seaming and exposed and taped construction. the thing about that is that it actually has no innovative functional purpose. the appeal of it to me is an aesthetic one. i actually think that it is probably deliberately useless. someone can correct me here, but I thought that one of the benefits of a bespoke suit (or expensive well made OTR) is that stitched unfused interlining - a benefit because it allows a more organic movement of the garment with the body. CCP does all of the stitched linings and then tapes them down, thus eliminating the principal (conventional) reason for doing it in the first place. [/quote]

That's very interesting, Johnny. I wonder if there is some point to the taping other than the aesthetic one. I also wonder about this, although to a lesser extent, about the joints. I see how they are supposed to work in theory, but in practice, they don't really work unless the pieces happen to fit you perfectly. Kind of a problem, since CCP is not bespoke...