Collateral Concepts 4th Iteration

[Chinorlz]

^ really great to hear some details from a rider who has had the experience of dropping their bike/rolling at what sounds like some pretty decently high speeds.

Yes I am by no means attempting to create a groundbreaking jacket that would be a protect-all type of system.

There are a number of existing quite high tech materials out there such as the Klim d3o non-newtonian "rubber" which is really incredible stuff. Kevlar alone would provide some level of blunt puncture resistance, ballistic resistance as well as some level of abrasion resistance. Compounded with an outer leather shell to a jacket it should serve nicely for low/medium speed fall protection.

You can augment the kevlar with impregnation with a non-newtonian fluid so that it hardens ever so briefly on high impact/impact points and thus becomes even more puncture resistant as well as now it can absorb and distribute impact energy.

My thoughts and designs are revolving around not just lining a jacket but constructing the jacket out of panels both inside and out that "build" an anatomic structure in jacket form. My attempt is not to hide the function, but to create an amalgamation between form and function.

There will be no airbags in my design ;)

... I've also been following the startup company Skully and their HUD helmet system. Waiting for that to hit beta testing and hopefully they'll grant me the chance to give it a go. I have a number of ideas revolving around electrical conductive material(s) and integration into leather/garments so any wearable electronic devices right now on the cutting edge are very fascinating to me.

[lowrey]

to be honest, a lot of stories of people falling in jeans and ruining their skin has to do with garbage clothes in my opinion. i've been down twice in regular fashiony clothes and i came out fine (clothes too, still wear them today):

dude, just because you had an extremely lucky fall doesn't mean some high end designer pants are resistant to the damage falling on asphalt can cause. This is like saying its ok to ride without a helmet because you by chance happened to fall on your ass - doesn't mean someone couldn't bust their face. if your jeans had no visible damage at 50mph, it means you were lucky and didn't slide much nor hit anything significant on the way because at that speed the abbrasion will most certainly leave marks on your jeans, most likely breaking them and your skin.

"garbage clothes", which I assume mean generic cheap clothing, can of course be less durable, but in terms of hitting pavement at 50mph, it doesn't make much of a difference if you're wearing Balenciaga or Target jeans, it depends entirely on how you land.

You can have a look here what it can look like when you fall at 40mph or less while wearing a pair of Levis jeans, and happen to be less lucky in the way you fall (warning, somewhat graphic): http://rideapart.com/2012/10/why-wea...ally-bad-idea/

I'm not trying to moralize about what to wear at all, I wear jeans myself sometimes when riding in the city even though I know its stupid, but certainly don't publicly recommend it to anyone.

[ironman]

^ really great to hear some details from a rider who has had the experience of dropping their bike/rolling at what sounds like some pretty decently high speeds.

Yes I am by no means attempting to create a groundbreaking jacket that would be a protect-all type of system.

There are a number of existing quite high tech materials out there such as the Klim d3o non-newtonian "rubber" which is really incredible stuff. Kevlar alone would provide some level of blunt puncture resistance, ballistic resistance as well as some level of abrasion resistance. Compounded with an outer leather shell to a jacket it should serve nicely for low/medium speed fall protection.

You can augment the kevlar with impregnation with a non-newtonian fluid so that it hardens ever so briefly on high impact/impact points and thus becomes even more puncture resistant as well as now it can absorb and distribute impact energy.

My thoughts and designs are revolving around not just lining a jacket but constructing the jacket out of panels both inside and out that "build" an anatomic structure in jacket form. My attempt is not to hide the function, but to create an amalgamation between form and function.

There will be no airbags in my design ;)

... I've also been following the startup company Skully and their HUD helmet system. Waiting for that to hit beta testing and hopefully they'll grant me the chance to give it a go. I have a number of ideas revolving around electrical conductive material(s) and integration into leather/garments so any wearable electronic devices right now on the cutting edge are very fascinating to me.

yeah i always thought HUD helmet would be super cool and also safe cuz then one could keep their eyes/head up and on the road

also, have fun building your own bike!! :) i was gonna build up an old Honda too but with the Canadian prices, it was more worth it for me to buy a newer bike and go from there. here's mine at the moment: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5503/9...47d27d05_b.jpg

dude, just because you had an extremely lucky fall doesn't mean some high end designer pants are resistant to the damage falling on asphalt can cause. This is like saying its ok to ride without a helmet because you by chance happened to fall on your ass - doesn't mean someone couldn't bust their face. if your jeans had no visible damage at 50mph, it means you were lucky and didn't slide much nor hit anything significant on the way because at that speed the abbrasion will most certainly leave marks on your jeans, most likely breaking them and your skin.

"garbage clothes", which I assume mean generic cheap clothing, can of course be less durable, but in terms of hitting pavement at 50mph, it doesn't make much of a difference if you're wearing Balenciaga or Target jeans, it depends entirely on how you land.

You can have a look here what it can look like when you fall at 40mph or less while wearing a pair of Levis jeans, and happen to be less lucky in the way you fall (warning, somewhat graphic): http://rideapart.com/2012/10/why-wea...ally-bad-idea/

I'm not trying to moralize about what to wear at all, I wear jeans myself sometimes when riding in the city even though I know its stupid, but certainly don't publicly recommend it to anyone.

do you know what a highside crash looks like? it should definitely leave marks but it didn't. i caught the brunt of the impact on my forearms of aforementioned jacket which is noticable because it was white leather. i definitely wouldn't say i'm lucky as i broke a thumb bone that time. the gloves didn't tear through, and there was no bleeding or bruising. i did slide down the road on my highside for a bit

the example you provided is of the typical jeans an average rider wears. levi's 511? those are flimsy as hell i own a pair myself. it's no wonder that dude burned through those so easily

i strongly disagree that it depends entirely on how you land. it definitely makes a difference (i found rolling the 2nd time around turned out better) but if you land properly and cut down the time you are on the floor, it won't matter if your clothes didn't survive. if he was wearing higher oz jeans he definitely would not have the abrasions he did

that guy himself says the clothes make a difference. he praises his Vanson jacket in his crash review for leaving his upper body relatively unscathed save his 2 broken ribs:

http://rideapart.com/2012/10/crash-tested-vanson-ar2-jacket-and-alpinestars-bio-armor/

although the condition of his sleeves makes me believe he was going faster than he thinks. my highside resulted in considerably less damage and i landed completely arms first (hence the broken thumb). we were both mid-corner, both wearing armored leather, i high-sided (worse than his lowside), i was going faster (supposedly), but mine looks in near mint condition compared to his:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3792/11444759016_aa341b277d_c.jpg

vs

http://cdn.rideapart.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/vanson-4.jpg

in any case, taking a 90 degree turn at 60-65 kph while attempting to apex it on a public road on a V4 superbike is idiotic, safety glass on the road or not

[lowrey]

do you know what a highside crash looks like?

yes, I've done one so I am more familiar with it than I'd like to be.

it should definitely leave marks but it didn't.

right, and I'd bet this is partly because of the way you fell, hence why I'm saying you're lucky. A highsider typically (not always, but typically) throws the rider so that it results in more rolling than sliding. Rolling results in less abrasion than sliding. The road surface plays a big role too, a coarse surface will tear through fabric and skin much easier.

i strongly disagree that it depends entirely on how you land. it definitely makes a difference (i found rolling the 2nd time around turned out better) but if you land properly and cut down the time you are on the floor, it won't matter if your clothes didn't survive. if he was wearing higher oz jeans he definitely would not have the abrasions he did

Never said it depends entirely on it. But do you really think you are always able to control your landing and the time you slide on the ground every time? A highsider is a actually convenient way to crash, and I'm speaking from experience too. if you go down lowside, you often end up sliding more, or could for example get your leg stuck between the bike and the street. Needless to say, the effects are entirely different, which is my point here. I think its ignorant to assume a crash to follow a certain pattern and that just because you were left almost unscratched, its universally safe to ride in inadequate gear, because its not.

[ironman]

yes, I've done one so I am more familiar with it than I'd like to be.



right, and I'd bet this is partly because of the way you fell, hence why I'm saying you're lucky. A highsider typically (not always, but typically) throws the rider so that it results in more rolling than sliding. Rolling results in less abrasion than sliding. The road surface plays a big role too, a coarse surface will tear through fabric and skin much easier.



Never said it depends entirely on it. But do you really think you are always able to control your landing and the time you slide on the ground every time? A highsider is a actually convenient way to crash, and I'm speaking from experience too. if you go down lowside, you often end up sliding more, or could for example get your leg stuck between the bike and the street. Needless to say, the effects are entirely different, which is my point here. I think its ignorant to assume a crash to follow a certain pattern and that just because you were left almost unscratched, its universally safe to ride in inadequate gear, because its not.

yes i said myself that i prefer rolling to sliding. as you stated it definitely results in less abrasion due to a shorter duration of contact with the road

the road surface is asphalt, for me and for the rider you used as an example. no way he'd be stupid enough to apex a 90 degree turn at 60-65 kph on an unpaved road

luck has little to do with it; as long as you were trained properly you do have control over how you land. they teach it to you in the safety course that in a lowside you should do your best to kick the bike away from you. plus you can easily turn a slide in to a roll, as i did on my 2nd fall

it is a trained response. you can learn how to deal with unexpected surfaces mid-corner, recovering from a fishtail, recover from locking the rear without highsiding it, etc. whether you do it through practise, watching youtube videos, or paying for the advanced courses, it is within your control how to handle a bad situation. granted, this is only reasonable for single vehicle incidents (i.e. your own fault)

you said, "in terms of hitting pavement at 50mph, it doesn't make much of a difference if you're wearing Balenciaga or Target jeans, it depends entirely on how you land."

of course every crash is different, and i never said it is okay to wear inadequate gear. you wear it according to speed, road, and weather conditions. if someone wants to dress overly protective and wear a full racing suit to work i am all for it good for them. my intention was to let Albert know that while super cool (and i'm looking forward to it), a liquid impregnated jacket is not necessary for average road speeds

my comment about garbage clothes is referring to the general motorcycle community's understanding of the gear. many riders hear of stories such as that rideapart article and swear off anything that is not made specifically with a motorcycle rider in mind. they would rather buy 14oz denim from a motorcycle brand than the same 14oz weight from say Samurai or Iron Heart even though it's pretty much the same thing. and it's not due to fear of broken bones (poor shock absorption) but rather that the clothing sheared right through continuing through the skin (poor abrasion resistance). go on any motorcycle forum's gear review and it's more pictures of how the gear survived the fall as opposed to broken bones

knowing that, if we are talking about single vehicle incidents from 50-100 kph with just abrasion resistance in mind, i would gladly wear a leather jacket from Albert or Zam as my daily (goat, kangaroo, buffalo, horse, elephant :)). i guess what i am saying is that especially for abrasion resistance, it is more about the quality than the brand. the leather thickness on many of the motorcycle brands are pretty thin. for shock asorption / impact protection you will always need extra safety features, whether it is soft armor, airbags, or new things like Albert's liquid idea but that is something else entirely

another thing that irks me is their measure of quality. for the CE EN 13595-1, clause 5.4 (abrasion resistance for protective clothing for professional motorcycle riders) a level 1 pass is 4 seconds and level 2 is 7 seconds of road rash. i've watched MotoGP crashes at 200+kph that didn't last that long. this is what i mean by unnecessary

[magic]

We need a biker thread mod

[carpema+]

troll account

[ironman]

i apologize for taking it further off topic. i was trying to give Albert friendly advice to not overthink his design (although that's kind of what makes it fun to follow his designs), but if i have anything else to add i will post in the motorcycle thread

[Chinorlz]

I'm enjoying the discussion! In general, I just like to see what I can do in any field/hobby/interest that I have... approach it in a way that may be different than others.

Once I finally get going on the project, I will be posting more on it here :)

[Dorje]

Beautiful collection Albert!

Have you seen d30 material? I ride downhill race mountain bikes and have some pads that use it, pretty cool stuff.

http://www.d3o.com/

[Chinorlz]

^ thanks man!

Yes I have. I mentioned it briefly up a number of posts above. I'm going to order some soon as well....

[Sombre]

yes i said myself that i prefer rolling to sliding. as you stated it definitely results in less abrasion due to a shorter duration of contact with the road

the road surface is asphalt, for me and for the rider you used as an example. no way he'd be stupid enough to apex a 90 degree turn at 60-65 kph on an unpaved road

luck has little to do with it; as long as you were trained properly you do have control over how you land. they teach it to you in the safety course that in a lowside you should do your best to kick the bike away from you. plus you can easily turn a slide in to a roll, as i did on my 2nd fall

it is a trained response. you can learn how to deal with unexpected surfaces mid-corner, recovering from a fishtail, recover from locking the rear without highsiding it, etc. whether you do it through practise, watching youtube videos, or paying for the advanced courses, it is within your control how to handle a bad situation. granted, this is only reasonable for single vehicle incidents (i.e. your own fault)

you said, "in terms of hitting pavement at 50mph, it doesn't make much of a difference if you're wearing Balenciaga or Target jeans, it depends entirely on how you land."

of course every crash is different, and i never said it is okay to wear inadequate gear. you wear it according to speed, road, and weather conditions. if someone wants to dress overly protective and wear a full racing suit to work i am all for it good for them. my intention was to let Albert know that while super cool (and i'm looking forward to it), a liquid impregnated jacket is not necessary for average road speeds

my comment about garbage clothes is referring to the general motorcycle community's understanding of the gear. many riders hear of stories such as that rideapart article and swear off anything that is not made specifically with a motorcycle rider in mind. they would rather buy 14oz denim from a motorcycle brand than the same 14oz weight from say Samurai or Iron Heart even though it's pretty much the same thing. and it's not due to fear of broken bones (poor shock absorption) but rather that the clothing sheared right through continuing through the skin (poor abrasion resistance). go on any motorcycle forum's gear review and it's more pictures of how the gear survived the fall as opposed to broken bones

knowing that, if we are talking about single vehicle incidents from 50-100 kph with just abrasion resistance in mind, i would gladly wear a leather jacket from Albert or Zam as my daily (goat, kangaroo, buffalo, horse, elephant :)). i guess what i am saying is that especially for abrasion resistance, it is more about the quality than the brand. the leather thickness on many of the motorcycle brands are pretty thin. for shock asorption / impact protection you will always need extra safety features, whether it is soft armor, airbags, or new things like Albert's liquid idea but that is something else entirely

another thing that irks me is their measure of quality. for the CE EN 13595-1, clause 5.4 (abrasion resistance for protective clothing for professional motorcycle riders) a level 1 pass is 4 seconds and level 2 is 7 seconds of road rash. i've watched MotoGP crashes at 200+kph that didn't last that long. this is what i mean by unnecessary

Re: sliding vs rolling, it depends on your preference. Do you want second degree burns or multiple fractures? Sliding typically results in burns caused by abrasion with the road surface if your clothes wear through during the slide, while the multiple high-speed impacts of rolling typically result in broken bones. You were lucky; walking away from a highside at that speed with only a broken thumb is nothing.

Luck has a lot to do with it; you have control over how you orient your body after landing, but very little control over the actual landing. The forces on your body at 50 mph or faster as you fly unexpectedly through the air are usually greater than your ability to adjust, not to mention minimum reaction time is often not much longer than your short flight. If luck had little to do with it Jorge Lorenzo wouldn't have landed on the same collar bone on two consecutive weekends in MotoGP.

On topic, chinorlz, I'm liking your ideas for a motorcycle jacket. I remember we spoke briefly about it a couple of years ago. At the time I didn't think there was a way around the bulk of a typical motorcycle jacket (mine weighs something like 9 lbs!), but your ideas sound like a great solution, while being technically advanced and increasing function. Please let us know how your work proceeds when you're able. I'm really interested to see what you come up with.

[Chinorlz]

Collateral Concepts Bespoke Leather Jacket



Earlier this month I completed a 3+ month long project for a client that flew in to visit my studio and to commission a leather jacket.

The client requested integration of concepts and hardware from a number of other designers while requesting me to build these into my own approach.

Multiple pieces of CCP titanium and silver as well as vintage jewelry were to be built into the jacket, Leather treatment techniques also had to be developed to create a "burned" and "destroyed" look to edges as well as careful usage of the butane torch to shrink-burn the leather.

This was by far the most intensive project I have undertaken yet. The amount of R&D, materials study, materials processing, and over 60 hours of construction time alone on the final jacket (not to mention the 3 canvas iterations for fitting purposes).

This posting will be done in multiple parts because of the number of photos involved.

[Chinorlz]

The Design





After a lengthy discussion with the client about how he wished to see the hardware integrated into the jacket, I developed a design that used these in a way that he and I agreed upon while building lines and seams that follow anatomic landmarks and body features. I envisioned the sleeves to be single-seam, single piece construction with the seam going down the back of the arm then arcing around once it passed the elbow and then moving sharply to transition into one of the natural palm creases.

The client wished for a gloved leather jacket so for improved fit, I planned for a wrist zipper that crossed the joint so that it could be unzipped to allow the hand to pass through and then when rezipped would restore the narrowness of the anatomic wrist.

Parts of some seams (and all of others) would have a heavy duty elastic insert. This would allow the jacket to fit snug to the body and yet allow for a range of movement. The shoulder blade panels would be fully free-floating with the elastic on all sides for true anatomic movement and to be reminiscent of the partial-floating nature of the human scapula.

[Chinorlz]

The Hardware



CCP titanium elbows were used from a CCP shirt, silver knuckles were also provided for this project.

A vintage silver spiked bracelet was separated and the spiked panel rebent to follow the neck contours. Small silver studs/spikes were embedded in the correct configuration onto a small panel of leather for final construction purposes.

CCP fingers with titanium were also provided and were to be integrated into the ends of the gloves. The thumb and pinkie were to be permanently attached to the jacket while the index, middle and ring fingers were joined and could thus be removed as a set if desired.